1G Road Racing Weaknesses

[Ludachris]

A great way to combat this would be a fuel surge tank. You can modify the fuel sending unit and utilize your in-tank pump while running an inline Walbro 255 lph. The 2G gas tank is designed and positioned more thoughtfully than the 1G but it can produce the same starving issues. I think a surge tank would be a great option for either generation. You can run less fuel (lighter vehicle) and avoid fuel starvation.

Santiago, can you explain in detail how to set up a surge tank? What parts would be needed, how would it be set up, how would it work, and what are the costs involved?

 

[KGB Pilot125]

I disagree with the whole autoX before road racing events. Autocross stuff is a lot like drag racing to me. whole day of waiting for a few seconds of fun. Plus in my opinion its really boring unless your in a kart. I say jump in feet first go to a driving school like bondurant, skip barber, then take your car out with an instructor for an open track day. I promise its about the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

 

[eclipsh]

Just my .02 but if you run the numbers for seat time AutoX is far more expensive. You spend $35 in my area for one day with about 7-10 minutes of total seat time. So the $200 for a track day turns into a screamingly good deal.

 

[Ludachris]

I think Andy was simply trying to give the guy a suggestion on how he can improve his driving before he jumped on a road course. AutoX is a great way to do this with a smaller up front fee. If you become good at AutoX you'll likely be able to take that experience and do well in road racing.

But there are ways to go road racing on the cheap without going the AutoX route. I for one, don't get very excited about autocrossing anymore after hitting a lot of track events. You can go out and be a corner worker at a NASA event and get free track time in return. At NASA events you get instructors in HPDE 1 and 2. That could help you learn faster than doing autocrossing too.

It all depends on what you like really. If you think you'll like autox, try it out. If not, just go to a NASA event. Some people will benefit from autocrossing first, some would rather just go out and hit a road course. Either way, you'll have fun and that's what it's all about.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

It's not so much seat time that I am concerned with, it's the amount of knowledge you can consume. The price you pay for auto-x and the knowledge you gain will far surpass the knowledge you learn on an open track for the price you pay. I know auto-X does not seem as fun as a large open track, and to be honest, its not as much fun, but I believe in taking things one step at a time.

Another point: Let's say you get your car all ready for this lapping day, first lap your car breaks down, now your screwed out of $200. Whereas if you would have went to an auto-X and worked out all the "kinks" you'd be out what, $35 at most.

That's what I am getting at. Do a few Auto-X's first, don't skip 1st base.

 

[neoviper]

It’s not so much seat time that I am concerned with, it’s the amount of knowledge you can consume. The price you pay for auto-x and the knowledge you gain will far surpass the knowledge you learn on an open track for the price you pay. I know auto-X does not seem as fun as a large open track, and to be honest, its not as much fun, but I believe in taking things one step at a time.

Another point: Let’s say you get your car all ready for this lapping day, first lap your car breaks down, now your screwed out of $200. Whereas if you would have went to an auto-X and worked out all the "kinks" you'd be out what, $35 at most.

That’s what I am getting at. Do a few Auto-X's first, don’t skip 1st base.

Agreed.

I'm a big believer in taking baby steps first. Auto-x is in no way where my heart lies, but it's a good place to start.

 

[tsiboosted]

I disagree with the whole autoX before road racing events. Autocross stuff is a lot like drag racing to me. whole day of waiting for a few seconds of fun. Plus in my opinion its really boring unless your in a kart. I say jump in feet first go to a driving school like bondurant, skip barber, then take your car out with an instructor for an open track day. I promise its about the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

I am going to have to disagree with the driving school idea. Especially one like Skip Barber's. Not to knock the school in ANY way. But that; to me, is for people that are extremely serious about getting a national competetive license. 1 day school at Skip Barber is around $1,300.00 and the 3 day school is around $3,600.00. Thats quite a bit of money for first time racer to shell out to just go to a school and not want to get a license.

The choice of course is totally up to him. AutoX is good, but obviously I perfer tracks to AutoX. But thats just me. I did do AutoX events and learned a great deal about the car and how it can handle before I went to tracks as well.

I think Andy was simply trying to give the guy a suggestion on how he can improve his driving before he jumped on a road course. AutoX is a great way to do this with a smaller up front fee. If you become good at AutoX you'll likely be able to take that experience and do well in road racing.

But there are ways to go road racing on the cheap without going the AutoX route. I for one, don't get very excited about autocrossing anymore after hitting a lot of track events. You can go out and be a corner worker at a NASA event and get free track time in return. At NASA events you get instructors in HPDE 1 and 2. That could help you learn faster than doing autocrossing too.

It all depends on what you like really. If you think you'll like autox, try it out. If not, just go to a NASA event. Some people will benefit from autocrossing first, some would rather just go out and hit a road course. Either way, you'll have fun and that's what it's all about.

NASA does a good job at rewarding the poeple that volunteer their time to be corner workers. After all, none of us could race without them. Corner workers are a very HIGHLY regarded at tracks.

 

[Zero Bar]

Doing HPDE is fine even if you have no autocross experience like Chris said, you have an instructor with you to coach you through HPDE 1 and most of 2 depending on how well you do.

Another thing with the car is to make sure you maintain your oil level, I had a friend lose his motor at Mid-Ohio in a corner when the oil level had dropped just enough that it was pulled away from the pickup in the pan and the motor went dry, you certainly don't want this to happen to you so keep your oil topped off as well!!

 

[tsiboosted]

Doing HPDE is fine even if you have no autocross experience like Chris said, you have an instructor with you to coach you through HPDE 1 and most of 2 depending on how well you do.

Another thing with the car is to make sure you maintain your oil level, I had a friend lose his motor at Mid-Ohio in a corner when the oil level had dropped just enough that it was pulled away from the pickup in the pan and the motor went dry, you certainly don't want this to happen to you so keep your oil topped off as well!!

Yeah, I agree with you about that. HPDE events are great for beginers. I am going back to what Chris said, Andy was just making a point on other choices that are cheaper he could start out with is all I think.

 

[neoviper]

O.k, I've done alot of research on foam filling a chasis. From what I've read it seems like something I may want to do. I figured I'd share my research with you guys.

One of the moderators on a 240sx forum used a structural foam to fill his a,b,and c pillars as well as rocker panels. The link to his write up is here:

Chassis stiffening foam result - Part 1, qualitative result*long post 56k go away* - FreshAlloy.com Forums

He starts off by sharing some research he found on some studies that DaimlerChrysler had performed. The studies showed that filling the different parts of the frame, more specifically the joints, increases the torsional mode of the car. Now I had no clue what all this torsional mode and modal frequency business was, so for the last 2 hours wikipedia has been my best friend.

From what I can understand, the forces applied to a cars structure from the road, shocks etc. can also be called "forced vibration", As the article in wikipedia brings out, "the frequency in forced vibration is the frequency of the force or motion applied". In other words, the forced vibration frequency shows us how much force is being apllied to the structure.

In the report, after the cars frame was filled with structural foam, they noticed an increase in the torsional mode frequency. The tortional mode freqency tells us how much "forced vibration" is being transfered through the structural member. The higher the frequency, the more force is being absorbed and the more resistant the structure is to "buckling" (buckling, also as stated by wikipedia, is "a failure mode characterized by a sudden failure of a structural member subjected to high compressive stresses") as the frame is absorbing more of the forces applied to it through transfer. So since the torsional frequency is increased, that shows that the cars structure is showing an increased resistance to torsioning ( bending or curving )

In Lamans terms, THE CAR IS MORE STIFF!!

Getting back to the thread mentioned the guy used 2pcf foam, or 2 lbs/cubic ft. There was an SAE paper written on this but I haven't found it yet. From what the forum says, the paper says that a foam density of 8pcf had the greatest impact vs weight added of all the densitys tested on the lower structural members (subframe, rocker panels ect.) whereas 2pcf had the greatest impact vs weight added for upper members (a,b, and c pillars).

Add all this up and I think that this something definately worth considering. I mean if Mines, Apexi, and MCR are doing it to their R34's, there must be some benefit to it

Its important to note that if any spot welding is going to be done to stiffen the chassis (or for that matter anything that you think will produce excess heat) It MUST BE DONE BEFORE FOAM FILLING!! From what I gathered the structural foam used is organic and thus flammable.

Flamming Chassis=

 

[Ludachris]

It's not so much seat time that I am concerned with, it's the amount of knowledge you can consume. The price you pay for auto-x and the knowledge you gain will far surpass the knowledge you learn on an open track for the price you pay. I know auto-X does not seem as fun as a large open track, and to be honest, its not as much fun, but I believe in taking things one step at a time.

Another point: Let's say you get your car all ready for this lapping day, first lap your car breaks down, now your screwed out of $200. Whereas if you would have went to an auto-X and worked out all the "kinks" you'd be out what, $35 at most.

That's what I am getting at. Do a few Auto-X's first, don't skip 1st base.

In our region, we've given refunds for cars that broke down in the first session... I know that's not the point. But I wouldn't want to people to think that they're doing it wrong by not autocrossing first. Most of my friends jumped right into track events because they simply didn't like autocross. Though autocross can be a helpful prerequisite to track events it's not necessarily something you have to do in order to be good at it. If you think you'll enjoy it, do it. If not, no biggie.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

In our region, we've given refunds for cars that broke down in the first session... I know that's not the point. But I wouldn't want to people to think that they're doing it wrong by not autocrossing first. Most of my friends jumped right into track events because they simply didn't like autocross. Though autocross can be a helpful prerequisite to track events it's not necessarily something you have to do in order to be good at it. If you think you'll enjoy it, do it. If not, no biggie.

I guess i just strongly believe in that route as that’s the same path I followed and I feel it worked great for me. There are plenty of ways to achieve something, as long as you have the ambition do follow through with your goals, you will achieve them.

 

[neoviper]

^^^ Well said.

So does anyone have any opinions, or better yet, experiances with using the structural foam in the chassis?

 

[Ludachris]

Yeah, back to the topic I guess...

I'm interested in hearing more on the foam too. I think I'd better do the spot welding first though if I were thinking of doing foam.

 

[neoviper]

^^^ Yea thats what I said at the end of that long post. The structural foam is organic and is flammable. If you are going to do anything to the chassis that will cause excess heat it must be done BEFORE you fill the frame with foam. Whats everyones opinion on that thread I linked to? Does it seem like something worth doing? All the research I've done says that it is. I'm seriously considering doing this.

 

[Dave532]

A great way to combat this would be a fuel surge tank. You can modify the fuel sending unit and utilize your in-tank pump while running an inline Walbro 255 lph. The 2G gas tank is designed and positioned more thoughtfully than the 1G but it can produce the same starving issues. I think a surge tank would be a great option for either generation. You can run less fuel (lighter vehicle) and avoid fuel starvation.

Exactly. That's what I meant by "few mods and a little money"...2 pumps, external surge tank, internal surge tank, foam, fuel cell, etc. all good ideas but I am always looking for something a bit less dramatic. I welded in a baffle which helped but did not cure it entirely.

 

[tsiboosted]

There are some other mods you can use as well to stiffen up the chassis. Tanabe makes some lower bracing bars for the front and rear. They make them for the 2G's, but I am unsure if they make them for 1st Gens. I am not sure how much the underside where they mount differ from the 1G's to the 2G's. But they look like this.

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Also, DGI Automotive (1 of my sponsors ) makes a Chassis Strengthening Bar for DSM's. Again, mine is obviously a 2G, but I would be willing to bet it would work or made to work in the 1st Gens. It basically attaches to the rear seat belt mounts across the entire car. Think of it as a strut bar mounted where the seatbelts mount on the top in th rear of the car.

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Just some other ideas/options you can look into as well.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Agreed.

I'm a big believer in taking baby steps first. Auto-x is in no way where my heart lies, but it's a good place to start.

I firmly beleive that autox is the first step in a road racing career along with karts. A powerful well setup car can hide a driver's mistakes on a road race course until they put themselves into a wall. Autox, because of its low-speed high-technicality will show you FIRST what your doing wrong, and make you learn to drive. Itll show you painfully how bad of a driver you actually are.

I beleive road racing to actually be easier to be fast than autocross, and have noticed a great many bad drivers in road racing that have gotten through groups just because their car is fast, but their actual driving is terrible.

For anyone saying they should just jump right into road racing, good luck, hope you dont put your car into a wall like all the other kids that say "im a good driver, I can jump right in." Its only at the first few autocrosses and higher up HPDE groups that you realize, ####, you are a shitty driver, the faster you realize that, the less likely you are to put yourself into a wall.

 

[Ravenous]

Now I don't really have an interest in auto-x or road racing for that matter, but I would like to let my car stretch it's legs at a hdpe every now and again. That being said, is there an auto-x bracket or class where it is I guess, just for fun? I want to be able to mod my car for numbers and handling but I don't necessarily want to be competitive in any specific class. I just want a good all around car and be able to test, tweak, and tune. Drag, auto-x, hdpe all more for myself than to compete.

Oh yes, and of course to increase my competence as a driver. That is the primary goal after all.

 

[Ludachris]

I firmly beleive that autox is the first step in a road racing career along with karts. A powerful well setup car can hide a driver's mistakes on a road race course until they put themselves into a wall. Autox, because of its low-speed high-technicality will show you FIRST what your doing wrong, and make you learn to drive. Itll show you painfully how bad of a driver you actually are.

I beleive road racing to actually be easier to be fast than autocross, and have noticed a great many bad drivers in road racing that have gotten through groups just because their car is fast, but their actual driving is terrible.

For anyone saying they should just jump right into road racing, good luck, hope you dont put your car into a wall like all the other kids that say "im a good driver, I can jump right in." Its only at the first few autocrosses and higher up HPDE groups that you realize, ####, you are a shitty driver, the faster you realize that, the less likely you are to put yourself into a wall.

This is getting too far off topic, maybe I'll have to split this discussion up. I'd have to disagree with the idea that if a driver doesn't do autocross that they'll be less of a road racer. If you go through the correct HPDE levels with NASA you "should" get adequate instruction and learn just as much as you would autocrossing. Not to say autocross couldn't help, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that you wouldn't be a good road racer if you didn't start out autocrossing. If that were the case I would say that Karting would be a better 1st step. But that's just my opinion. I think we'll all have to agree to disagree here.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Now I don't really have an interest in auto-x or road racing for that matter, but I would like to let my car stretch it's legs at a hdpe every now and again. That being said, is there an auto-x bracket or class where it is I guess, just for fun? I want to be able to mod my car for numbers and handling but I don't necessarily want to be competitive in any specific class. I just want a good all around car and be able to test, tweak, and tune. Drag, auto-x, hdpe all more for myself than to compete.

Oh yes, and of course to increase my competence as a driver. That is the primary goal after all.

Attend a lapping day. Lapping days are not a race, but more of a practise or "beat the living crap out of your car" day.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

I firmly beleive that autox is the first step in a road racing career along with karts. A powerful well setup car can hide a driver's mistakes on a road race course until they put themselves into a wall. Autox, because of its low-speed high-technicality will show you FIRST what your doing wrong, and make you learn to drive. Itll show you painfully how bad of a driver you actually are.

I beleive road racing to actually be easier to be fast than autocross, and have noticed a great many bad drivers in road racing that have gotten through groups just because their car is fast, but their actual driving is terrible.

For anyone saying they should just jump right into road racing, good luck, hope you dont put your car into a wall like all the other kids that say "im a good driver, I can jump right in." Its only at the first few autocrosses and higher up HPDE groups that you realize, ####, you are a shitty driver, the faster you realize that, the less likely you are to put yourself into a wall.

Thats a ridiculous statement. If you want to learn "road racing" the actual art of passing, being passed, defending your position, and strategy then autocross is not for you and dont even waste your time. is it fun? maybe, does it translate to better car control on the street? yes. but will it realistically teach you anything about road racing? NO will it teach you about driving your car on a road course? YES.
If you want to go road racing sell you DSM by a kart (start out with a TAG) an go from there. work your way up to 125 shifters and then if you really like the bigger tracks go to the 250's they do endurance racing on larger car tracks. a couple of years ago the 250 super karts would have qualified in front of the GT1 vettes. That will teach you so much more than anything you can learn in your DSM or anystreet car for that matter.

little back ground about my road racing: I used to be factory shifter kart driver, I ran under the same tent as Scott speed for while, pitted with memo gidley, raced against AJ Almendinger, Bobby Wilson, Valiante. After racing shifter karts you can almost drive anything everything happens so much slower in a street car. I have also been to a few autocrosses won those too.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Not to get even more off topic, but road racing does not have to be wheel-to-wheel. I like road racing to take out my aggression on my car. It gets my blood pump'n!!! Auto-X and Road-Racing share LOTS of the same strategies and are alike in many ways.

 

[tsiboosted]

Ok back on topic shall we

This is what I believe will help you out a lot in the begining. Stiffining up the car is a good start yes. Do this with the obvious strut bars, under bracing etc. Also, the suspension will help out worlds for you. If you cannot go straight at full coilovers, you may want to consider something like the KYB AGX (just an example) struts and some good springs. For road racing, I would recomend somewhere in the range of 650 lbs in the front and somwhere around 375 lbs in the rear. That is pretty stiff and maybe too stiff for a "daily" driver. Now if youwanted to street it still, you may want to go with a lesser srping rate. Say around 350 lbs in the front and maybe like 175 - 200 lbs in the rear. That would still give you a descent ride and a better than the slinky springs that come on the cars at the track.

For an example, the Tanabe GF210 springs can be had for around $130 or so, combine those with a good set of struts, say the KGB's, Koni's etc. You would have a nice riding, much stiffer suspension setup that can be used for DD as well as going to the track. Especially if you daily drive the car as well, you may want to try and get an adjustable strut so you cqan tone it down on the street and crank it up at the track.

Some poeple will msot likely dissagree with me on what I might say on this matter. But if you are not looking to break the bank on full coilovers right away, this will give you a good setup that can be affordable, good ride (street) and aggressive at the track.

I think if you did all the suspension things first instead of the "speed" mods, you will actually go faster with an almost stock setup. You can have a 900hp car, but if you cant turn it, there is no reason to have those 900hp is there? My $0.02 is start with the suspension and tires and go from there. Tires are 80% of the game anyway, maybe even more. I hope some of this helps you out man.

 

[neoviper]

Ok back on topic shall we

Thank you.

I had no intentions of this thread starting an arguement like that, But I do appreciate everyones opinions and advice. Your right Tsiboosted, I just finished freshening up my stock setup. I was planning on maxing out my cars potential with its stock power (ok maybe a little increase in boost, but its still a stock car), before doing anything with the engine. I want to be able to feel the difference that different mods have on my car and in order to do that I need to know what it's limits are. That was a big reason for me starting this thread.