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DSM Tuners Sponsorship Greg Collier Aug Race 2006 "NEW"

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Greg Collier

20+ Year Contributor
1,258
15
Mar 8, 2003
Diego, California
Race Prep

I decided to run the 2-pc Bogart rims versus the Cobra Mustang wheels this race to see if the weight difference between them would have a dramatic change in my lap times. When I went to check the tire pressures one of the Bogart’s was down to ten pounds. I sprayed some soapy water at the 2-pc seam and discovered it was leaking air slowly but surely. I had three weeks until the race so I shipped it back to the manufacturer for a free fix. It only took a week and a half and I was in business.

I also made the decision to go back to the stock cooling setup and disconnected the closed breather system and removed the thermostat. I figured between the plug blowing out at California Speedway and the major upper radiator hose detonation at my last race, I was afraid I might be building up too much water pressure. Personally I don’t understand why the 13-pound cap on the thermostat housing and or the 15-pound cap on the breather bottle didn’t purge before a thick radiator hose did?

I changed all the fluids, bled the brakes and tranny, and put a new set of Porterfield’s in the front Stop Tech’s. I normally change the plugs but the ones from the last race looked to be in good shape with good color.

Off to the races

Friday morning we started our trek back to Willow Springs International Raceway. From San Diego through Los Angeles we were on autopilot up into the high desert. We landed at the track in only three and a half hours to mid-eighty degree weather. Yes… there is a God!

Saturday at the track

We woke up to an absolutely beautiful day with temperatures in the mid sixties. When we reached the track I was amazed with the low attendance of racers. All I can assume is that everyone assumed it was going to be literally hotter than hell or they’re preparing for their respective trips to the Nationals at Mid-Ohio.

We made it to our garage and set up for our day of racing. Tom Dixon came up for the weekend to help out and as always he made the weekend that much easier to deal with. I got the racecar log-book signed, started the car up, set my tire pressures at 32 pounds each, and suited up for our track warm up session. I love driving on the track first thing in the morning. The sun is still rising, the air is crisp and cool, and the track has just been freshly swept for the day’s activities.

NASA was only running one large race group at this event because of the low turnout. With over forty cars in the field at the same time, running from 115 to 800 horsepower, it would definitely make for an interesting day.

Warm Ups

We all took to the track under a double yellow flag scrubbing our tires to generate some heat. As we made the last turn onto the front straight the green flag was thrown and our session was under way. The Flying Banana felt good as I floored it and flew down the straight to turn one. I took the next lap fairly easy as I patiently waited for the tires to come up to full temperature. With my next trip around turn one the car stuck like a bloodsucker to a bear’s butt. (Sounds like something SlowOldPoop might say… huh?) I remembered that I was running the Bogart’s so I accelerated through the small sweeper at turn two and the car dug into the apex like it was on rails. Oh what a feeling… to finally have the power to take those fat ol Hoosiers to the limit put a huge grin on my face. The next turn was the off-camber, uphill, tight left hander, to the immediate right hand buttonhook, then down hill to another quick right then tight left hand off camber, get close, but don’t touch the inside of the apex because it might suck you in at high speeds. It takes some seat time but if you master these series of turns with smooth shifting, braking, and acceleration, it’s like you’re doing a dance with your car. Other then these series of turns this track is extremely fast. My wife Kathy got some great photographs of the elevation changes in this area to help give you an idea of what it’s like.

The car continued to stick like glue as turns seven, eight, and nine approached. If you remember from my past commentaries of Willow Springs, turn seven is almost a straightaway, and turn eight is the beginning of a long 160 mph sweeper that ends with turn nine that shoots you out on to the front straight. There are a lot of people that don’t like running Big Willow because if you touch the edge of turn nine it’ll suck you right off the track. But I digress…

With the car fused to the track like hot glue I blew down the front straight at lightning speed. The steering wheel felt as light as a feather and the car would respond to any slight movement. It was a little unnerving at those speeds for the first time… but I got use to it!

I ran the warm up session until the checkered flag, passing just about everything on the track. The car temps were between 210 and 220 but I figured going back to the stock cooling setup would account for those higher temperatures.

I did my cool down lap and pulled off the track in anticipation of seeing my lap times. They were three to five seconds quicker than my last outing up here so my confidence level boosted by two fold. How sweet it was!

With the car back in the garage and cooled down we did a systems check. The left front tire was 3 pounds higher then the other tires as a result of the elevated friction levels exerted at that particular point of the car through the turns. We lowered the pressure by three pounds. We checked the water levels and discovered the system was almost two quarts low. That was a bit disturbing but there were no visible leaks and the motor didn’t appear that much hotter than usual. We topped of the water and added some Water Wetter. Oil and all other fluids were good to go…

Qualifying

The race group took to the track like a swarm of locusts belching out race fuel. The track was immediately hot (no double yellow flags) so the insanity began. All I could assume was that everyone had experienced a similar confidence booster in their warm up session and they blasted onto the track at full speed. Cars were running off into the dirt at every turn, and then they would come back on track dumping wheelbarrow full loads of rock and dirt on to the apexes of the turns. It became an instant obstacle course of sideway cars while trying to tiptoe through the gravel. I had started in the back of the group so I got maybe two crappy laps in before the entire session was black-flagged.

Race Time

The Super Unlimited series, a group of eight cars, had its usual field of Nascar style stock cars, the Trans Am series Mustang, Grand Am Viper, GT Porsche, etc. We had the Spec 944 Porsche series and SER Nissan series starting behind us. The Honda Cup cars were to do a standing start in front of us, as we would come up real slow behind them following the pace car.

The Honda’s did their start. I don’t know who was driving the pace car but he appeared completely out of touch. He started to speed up way beyond what a pace car normally drives and the front four Super Unlimited cars began to race toward the flag stand. Our formation went into complete chaos and the green flag was thrown. It was the worst start I’d ever been involved in.

We blasted down the straight to turn one. We were all so split up there was no concern of cars bottlenecking at the turn. For some odd reason people took it easy through the first race lap. All I could guess was that the qualifying session had some impact on them. After lap one it was balls to the walls. The Flying Banana was running just like it did during the morning warm up. My race group began passing Honda after Honda until the 944 Porsches came into view. I began to notice cars sitting off track like the Viper and the Mustang Trans Am. Then the Honda guys started to do their off road excursions. I’d been watching my temps when all of a sudden the water temp gauge read 250 degrees. “Holy crap!” I screamed. I was at turn seven going into turn eight when I decelerated. With the high temperatures holding steady I shut the motor down at turn nine and coasted onto the hot pit lane, then onto the paddock to my garage. I had no idea but the white flag had come out just as I pulled off the track. One frigging lap to go and I had to shut down. At that point of the race I was in contention for 2nd place in class. My little part of the race world came crumbling down.

In all the excitement of the race I hadn’t noticed that my cool suit water line had broken and was pissing water all over me, and on the floor of the car.

Once the car had cooled down we discovered we were three quarts of water low in the cooling system. There was still no evidence of a leak or an extremely hot and or steaming motor.

We discussed our options and thought that maybe the water was running so quickly through the system it wasn’t getting cooled. We decided to reinstall the thermostat with additionally drilled holes. By the time we completed the task at hand the track was down and the drivers were attending a beer fest, compliments of NASA. I had used up the last of my Water Wetter so we needed to head towards the hotel to find an open auto parts store. Fortunately we found an Auto Zone and we were in business.

Sunday

After a fairly decent night’s sleep we were back at the track preparing for the Sunday morning warm up. I took the car out and slowly brought it up to race speeds. Within eight or nine laps the water temp gauge read 250 and I shut it down and coasted back to the garage. Once again the car didn’t seem to be that hot. As a matter of fact Tom was able to put his hand on the radiator without getting burned. We thought maybe the temp gauge was faulty but we would wait until it was cool enough to see what the water level was. The OEM water expansion tank wasn’t over flowing and it was at the same water level that we started the warm up session with. When the car was cool enough we discovered we were again three quarts of water low. What the hell is going on?

I made the decision to throw in the towel and not race that afternoon. I wasn’t going to chance doing any harm to this engine.

Back in the garage in San Diego

This past Monday I did a water pressure test finding no leaks and the cooling system holds pressure like new. I pulled the radiator and checked that all the fins were straight, intact, and I could visually look through with no obstructions. I pulled the plugs finding no problems or indications of water. All the cylinders and piston heads have a nice dark coating of normal combustion chambers. I did a compression test resulting in 190 psi straight across the board.

The car drives like a bat out of hell. It’s so competitive at this stage it’s insane. I can’t wait to deal with this issue and kick some major ass! It’s all about the learning curve and I ain’t gonna quit until it’s solved!

It was an excellent weekend of racing, when it lasted…

Greg
 

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Sorry to hear about your troubles. Loosing that much water is somewhat of a mystery and can only imagine how nerve wracking. So where does this place you in the series? We know your just giving your competition a head start :thumb:

Strangly enough, I just was browsing the vidoes on www.muellerized.com and had just watched an Evo loose it on one of the corners and bang up the car pretty bad. Curious if it's the same corners you were refering too. That track looks very fast.
 
asian312 said:
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Loosing that much water is somewhat of a mystery and can only imagine how nerve wracking. So where does this place you in the series? We know your just giving your competition a head start :thumb:

Strangly enough, I just was browsing the vidoes on www.muellerized.com and had just watched an Evo loose it on one of the corners and bang up the car pretty bad. Curious if it's the same corners you were refering too. That track looks very fast.

The season points aren't up on the NASA site as yet so I don't know where we are points wise.

Yep, that's my buddy Kent Jordon. This is a prime example of how turn nine will suck you in if you touch the edge of the track. Pretty hairy crash eh... Kent was fine but the car was a total loss. John was able to build a brand new EVO in less than 2-months.

For those who want to see what we're talking about click on the link below...

http://www.muellerized.com/videos/92-silver_car/Willow Springs/Wreck 1-30-05.wmv

Turn nine can be killer!
 
Sorry to hear about the issues Greg. I've been dealing with an annoying oil burning issue I can't track down myself. Best of luck in finding that issue with the disappearing coolant. Hopefully it's nothing major. Have you considered an issue with the water pump? A small leak at idle or with the motor off, could become a large leak when pressurized and up to temperature.
 
mavisky said:
Sorry to hear about the issues Greg. I've been dealing with an annoying oil burning issue I can't track down myself. Best of luck in finding that issue with the disappearing coolant. Hopefully it's nothing major. Have you considered an issue with the water pump? A small leak at idle or with the motor off, could become a large leak when pressurized and up to temperature.

Hey Kyle,

It's a brand new water pump and when I pressurized the coolant system I forgot and left it pressurized on over-night. When I came out the next morning it was still up to 8 lbs. versus the 13 lbs. that I started off with the day before. I had large sheets of paper under the motor and there wasn't a trace of any fluids.

I'm going to do a leak down test and see if that might reveal something.

I'm probably just so close to the problem right now I can't see the trees before the forest. I need to take a wider perspective of the entire situation...

Good luck to you with your oil burning problems, when it rains it pours!
 
A friend of mine who track-day plays with a rather fast 3kgt, found that the combination of high system pressure and high water speed in the elbow below the radiator cap seemed to be lifting the cap, slightly, at high rpms. He moved the cap to the low pressure side of the radiator, and that piece of the puzzle is now fixed. I've noticed that EVO's now have their caps on the radiator.
 
underradar92 said:
A friend of mine who track-day plays with a rather fast 3kgt, found that the combination of high system pressure and high water speed in the elbow below the radiator cap seemed to be lifting the cap, slightly, at high rpms. He moved the cap to the low pressure side of the radiator, and that piece of the puzzle is now fixed. I've noticed that EVO's now have there caps on the radiator.

That sounds resonable and that may be the sourse...
 
Greg Collier said:
That sounds resonable and that may be the sourse...
I've made a setup for my car which addresses that problem too. I probably don't need it but it doesn't hurt. There are pics in my gallery of what I did.
 
Look on the bright side: The faster you go, the lighter the car gets.

All seriousness aside (as Brother Dave used to say), here are a few thoughts from someone who had the identical problem with a 3000GT.

1. Try the old "white paper towel" trick. (If you are running plain clean water, you'll have to put some color in the water first.) Wrap white paper towels around every area. Use masking tape or rubber bands to keep the paper towel wrapped around the radiator cap, hoses, hose clamps, etc. If it leaks at all -- even a teeny tiny leak -- the escaping colored water/steam will soak into the white paper towel, and you can spot where it's coming out.

2. Is the expansion tank empty when the rad is three quarts low? As I understand a cooling system, the rad sucks water from the expansion tank when it's running low. That's why you keep the tank filled. If so, as a stopgap, you could rig up a one-gallon can of water and a windshield washer pump, and run it to the expansion tank. Use the low coolant sensor signal to turn on the pump, or just turn on a manual switch at the half-way point in the race. That way, while you are figuring out where the leak is coming from, you'll be able to keep water in the system. It's using three quarts during a session, so a one-gal can will keep you running.

3. Maybe your cooling system is not full of water from the gitgo. I know that burping the system will let it take in a bunch more water and--judging from experience with my old 3000GT -- Mitsu cooling systems get downright cranky when they don't have enough water. It may be difficult to do, but is there any way you could CALCULATE how much water the system is supposed to hold? Then, starting with an empty system, measure how much it takes to fill it. If it is supposed to take, say, 5 gallons of water but you can only get four gallons into it for some reason, maybe that's your problem. Some internal piping configuration may be causing a big air bubble. If so, maybe you can get it to take a full load by raising or lowering the front of the car a considerable amount--like 45 degrees.

4. This is your first race experience on the new stroker motor. Going back to my 3000GT days, I know that when we ran high boost, the engine ran hot. Keep the boost down (by running in higher gears or short shifting) and the temps would drop. It just may be that you are having problems with boost-induced overheating that you never had before. If so, one solution is water injection, which tends to cool the pistons and lower the EGTs.

5. Are your EGTs especially high? Maybe that's a clue.

6. Did you change your plumbing in any way to bring a water-carrying component in closer proximity to the exhaust? How about the new turbo, for example? Is it closer to something than the previous turbo? Hmmm...how about those water lines under the exhaust manifold? Maybe some heat wrap of the exhaust would help.

7. Is your underhood ducting actually working? Or is it trapping heat instead? Maybe you should install some heat-tape sensors to see how much heat is in the area. If it gets hot enough under there to melt the plastic timing belt cover, it can certainly spot-heat a water line, too.

8. The first rule of diagnostics is: What did you do last? That's a good place to look for a problem you may have caused yourself. For example, you said "I also made the decision to go back to the stock cooling setup and disconnected the closed breather system and removed the thermostat." Well, THAT'S different from when it used to run cool. What else?

Like James the Master Fabricator said above, 3000GTs have this kind of mysterious overheating problem all the time when road racing. And what's really wierd is that some have a problem, and some don't! After five years of discussing the problem on the 3000GT forums, we never solved it nor did we find any reason that it was happening.

Perhaps you could learn something from the guy James is talking about. He's tried EVERYTHING. Literally! He could write a book about unique and clever ways to solve cooling system problems in race-prepped 3000GTs. Alas, most of his solutions did not work, although they sounded really great at the time. Problem is, you can't duplicate race conditions in the garage, on the street or on a dyno. You gotta do laps.

Lots of luck pal. Been there, done that.

Rich
 
Slow old poop said:
Look on the bright side: The faster you go, the lighter the car gets.

All seriousness aside (as Brother Dave used to say), here are a few thoughts from someone who had the identical problem with a 3000GT.

1. Try the old "white paper towel" trick. (If you are running plain clean water, you'll have to put some color in the water first.) Wrap white paper towels around every area. Use masking tape or rubber bands to keep the paper towel wrapped around the radiator cap, hoses, hose clamps, etc. If it leaks at all -- even a teeny tiny leak -- the escaping colored water/steam will soak into the white paper towel, and you can spot where it's coming out.

2. Is the expansion tank empty when the rad is three quarts low? As I understand a cooling system, the rad sucks water from the expansion tank when it's running low. That's why you keep the tank filled. If so, as a stopgap, you could rig up a one-gallon can of water and a windshield washer pump, and run it to the expansion tank. Use the low coolant sensor signal to turn on the pump, or just turn on a manual switch at the half-way point in the race. That way, while you are figuring out where the leak is coming from, you'll be able to keep water in the system. It's using three quarts during a session, so a one-gal can will keep you running.

3. Maybe your cooling system is not full of water from the gitgo. I know that burping the system will let it take in a bunch more water and--judging from experience with my old 3000GT -- Mitsu cooling systems get downright cranky when they don't have enough water. It may be difficult to do, but is there any way you could CALCULATE how much water the system is supposed to hold? Then, starting with an empty system, measure how much it takes to fill it. If it is supposed to take, say, 5 gallons of water but you can only get four gallons into it for some reason, maybe that's your problem. Some internal piping configuration may be causing a big air bubble. If so, maybe you can get it to take a full load by raising or lowering the front of the car a considerable amount--like 45 degrees.

4. This is your first race experience on the new stroker motor. Going back to my 3000GT days, I know that when we ran high boost, the engine ran hot. Keep the boost down (by running in higher gears or short shifting) and the temps would drop. It just may be that you are having problems with boost-induced overheating that you never had before. If so, one solution is water injection, which tends to cool the pistons and lower the EGTs.

5. Are your EGTs especially high? Maybe that's a clue.

6. Did you change your plumbing in any way to bring a water-carrying component in closer proximity to the exhaust? How about the new turbo, for example? Is it closer to something than the previous turbo? Hmmm...how about those water lines under the exhaust manifold? Maybe some heat wrap of the exhaust would help.

7. Is your underhood ducting actually working? Or is it trapping heat instead? Maybe you should install some heat-tape sensors to see how much heat is in the area. If it gets hot enough under there to melt the plastic timing belt cover, it can certainly spot-heat a water line, too.

8. The first rule of diagnostics is: What did you do last? That's a good place to look for a problem you may have caused yourself. For example, you said "I also made the decision to go back to the stock cooling setup and disconnected the closed breather system and removed the thermostat." Well, THAT'S different from when it used to run cool. What else?

Like James the Master Fabricator said above, 3000GTs have this kind of mysterious overheating problem all the time when road racing. And what's really wierd is that some have a problem, and some don't! After five years of discussing the problem on the 3000GT forums, we never solved it nor did we find any reason that it was happening.

Perhaps you could learn something from the guy James is talking about. He's tried EVERYTHING. Literally! He could write a book about unique and clever ways to solve cooling system problems in race-prepped 3000GTs. Alas, most of his solutions did not work, although they sounded really great at the time. Problem is, you can't duplicate race conditions in the garage, on the street or on a dyno. You gotta do laps.

Lots of luck pal. Been there, done that.

Rich

1)I pressurized the cooling system overnight with large sheets of blueprint paper under the car with nary a leak.
2)When we ran the warm up on Sunday we filled the expansion tank to the line level. Even after it over heated the expansion tank level was the same.
3)The cooling system holds 2-1/2 gallons and we were bang-on without any air gaps.
4)We were running the same 16psi as the last race without any overheating.
5)At the hottest point the EGT's were running normal.
6)The only thing we changed was removing the breather bottle and going back to the OEM expansion tank. We re-installed the thermostat which resulted in no change.
7)The ducting is the same with free air flow from the front foil through the radiator/FMIC through the vent on the hood.
8)The only difference was the breather system change to the OEM expansion tank.

Unfortunately you can't simulate race conditions without having a track at your disposal.
I may just be to close to the problem to see it clearly...
 
Greg Collier said:
1)I pressurized the cooling system overnight with large sheets of blueprint paper under the car with nary a leak....

Doesn't prove anything. It only leaks under super hot race conditions, and pressurizing the system doesn't duplicate that. Try the white paper towels on a race day. We found a teeny tiny leak that way.

You didn't mention the turbo. As I recall, you put a new one on. Maybe it is generating more heat than the old one, or is closer to water lines.

I can't think of anything else. I went through the entire set of things we tried and thought about on my 3000GT.

Well, one last thing: Is that your old short block? Or did Mitch replace it with another? Could be there is something different among the various blocks. 3000GTs are like that. For example, 2nd gen 3000GTs are more prone to overheating than 1st gens, but nobody knows why.

Rich
 
Rich,
The old block is history. It has a nice blue color and sitting in the shop as a reminder of what and how.
Greg was trying to tell everybody that the second engine ran the race before the last one at the same track but in 40 Degrees hotter track yet it was running cool until it popped the hose. The engine was shut down at that time and done racing.
For this race he made changes to the breather system only nothing else.
 
jtmcinder said:
But the car started! That says two things to me: he really was dazed and the Evo not only rocks, but is a rock.

- Jtoby

I couldn't believe with the car lying on its side, he actually started it up thinking he could drive it? Now that's what I call being disoriented... and or a true "the show must go on", racer!

Kent's pretty aggressive; he punted me off the track one time... WTF
 
Slow old poop said:
Like James the Master Fabricator said above, 3000GTs have this kind of mysterious overheating problem all the time when road racing. And what's really wierd is that some have a problem, and some don't! After five years of discussing the problem on the 3000GT forums, we never solved it nor did we find any reason that it was happening.

Perhaps you could learn something from the guy James is talking about. He's tried EVERYTHING. Literally! He could write a book about unique and clever ways to solve cooling system problems in race-prepped 3000GTs. Alas, most of his solutions did not work, although they sounded really great at the time. Problem is, you can't duplicate race conditions in the garage, on the street or on a dyno. You gotta do laps.

Lots of luck pal. Been there, done that.

Rich
The 3000gt in question no longer has a cooling issue (185* at speed), even with no obvoius nose chopping, and an intercooler which is actually larger than the (huge) radiator. Now it just tosses connecting rods, but thats another story. He has a lot of heat shields between the radiator & turbo, the radiator is moved forward & tilted away from the engine, a HEAVILY vented hood, some sort of electric water pump booster, & some stuff I don't know about. I'm going to e-mail him on what the final solution was.
 
Greg Collier said:
I couldn't believe with the car lying on its side, he actually started it up thinking he could drive it?
Wow! I assumed that the camera was just dislodged and the car landed on its feet. Sounds like more than the car was Muellerized.

- Jtoby
 
underradar92 I'm going to e-mail him on what the final solution was.

Any and all comments, concepts, etc., are greatly appreciated :thumb:

jtmcinder Wow! I assumed that the camera was just dislodged and the car landed on its feet. Sounds like more than the car was Muellerized.

The biggest part of the car being Mullerized was the roll cage. Kent soon after bowed down to John and his ability to build a life saving cage...

My wife hates the video by the way!
 
underradar92 said:
some sort of electric water pump booster, & some stuff I don't know about. I'm going to e-mail him on what the final solution was.


The theory was that a steam pocket could develop and enter the stock water pump. The water pump has to have fluid in it in order for it to pump, if not then the pump would just spin in the steam and the coolant would stop flowing. The electric pusher pump is on the return side of the radiator, so it should never see steam. It should push the coolant through so no steam pockets can set up camp in the water pump.
 
Wow, great shots! Tom was literally driving around the track and taking pictures from different vantage points so you get a better perspective of the track and all the action.

Thanks again for all the help Tom, the weekend is always so much easier with your extra hands and brainpower. It's truly appreciated! :thumb:
 
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