Head Gasket problems

[44pirate]

Well I got my head on and running but.

After I got it to temp I noticed my catch can filter was getting full of water. I took it off. I left the hose dangling from the breather from the VC it was dripping water. I shut it down and I retourqed the ARP bolts.
They seemed to take alot of retourqing for instance, I had to turn them at least 90 degrees and one almost 270 degrees to tourque up to 85 lbs. is this normal.

So now when I rev it to 3500 or more it smokes kind of white. I put my hand at the exhaust and have it reved the smoke feels wet.

So I have some dumb questions.
1. Can the HG be in upside down.
2. Maybe my torque wrench isn't good. It is brand new Discount Auto.

I think it is HG related.
Someone help
Thanks George

 

[boostd91gsx]

headgasket

 

[44pirate]

Originally posted by boostd91gsx
headgasket

Very insightful. Any suggestions. FIrst hand experience.

 

[BUCK]

Quit running it for God's sake! - Tear it back down - I take it you had the Head checked at least for flatness while it was off? - I take it the Head isn't cracked? Make sure the Head threads are clean & bottom tapped - Use Anti Seize on your "ARP BOLTS" - Don't use any BS metal head gaskets, get the composite Mitsu - Torque with 1/2 drive stuff preferably Impact grade even if you have to use an adapter at the Torque Wrench - ADD any running Torque necesaary to drive the fastener to your final torque (I went with 4 stages of about 20 ftlb each + running Torque) - & of course comply with the Torquing Pattern - I doubt seriously your problem is the Torque Wrench...

- Change the Oil & Filter again after you get the Head back on!

Better Luck Next time - this happens...

 

[44pirate]

Thanks Buck
Picking up a new HG. I did use a OEM composite.
Yep the head is flat and no cracks.
The head is O-ringed. I had some other suggestions about touque it to 110 ft lbs because of the O-ring.
What size tap do I use?
It was only running for about total 15 mins. Rev no higher then 5000.
Thanks for your help
George

 

[BUCK]

O Rings! Complicated little Head Job here... My guess is one fell off of the Head while you were putting it on - that's why it didn't Torque evenly & that's where your leak is - Get some Silicon Gel - or at least some KY Jelly or Vaseline... bend over - then use it on the O Rings. Where are the O Rings on this fancy Head & how do the ORing joints eal thru the Head Gasket? I'd love to see a pic...

In my experience with O-Ring Joints (20 years keeping water out of Submarines) the Torque is for shock loading the fastener - Of course if the fastener is not properly Torqued to survive the shock load it sees the joint could open up & of course you could get a leak at the Joint due to the "gap" that the shock opened up due to the poorly Torqued joint. There is a VERY small amount of O-Ring Compression designed into such joints & OVER TORQUING, or even UNDER TORQUING would not really change the amount of O Ring Compression - the 2 faces are laying against each other without ANY Fasteners & often the O Ring can be fully compressed by weight alone. I would be damn sure every O Ring groove is perfectly clean & free of scratches ACROSS the sealing areas (remember it's a low compression joint & NOT FORGIVING OF DEBRIS & defects in sealing surfaces) - Use the PROPER CROSS SECTION O Ring - Use NEW Viton O-Rings & use a LITTLE film of Silicon gel on each O Ring.

This differs GREATLY as compared to a how Head Gasket works - there a lot of COMPRESION of the Head Gasket to results in a "seal". Of course you want it clean but it is far more forgiving of debris & scratches. SEAL is DEFINITELY dependent on the gasket being evenly & sufficiently Torqued.

I've got to run down & check my Manual for the Tap size - I'll edit it in...

 

[44pirate]

Buck
The O-rings are copper.
So what your telling me is to replace the O-rings?
I doubt they fell out. They were in there pretty good. Before I installed the head it was checked for flatness.

 

[BUCK]

10 MM x 1.50 - As I said get a bottom Tap or at least a number 2 - a starter tap may not clean the threads to a sufficient depth. Start Tap by HAND, clean & tap several times - (shop vac or air nozzle or even brake cleaner with the little red nozzle to blow the holes out) you'll be amazed at what comes out of those holes - try & not get that crap in the holes in your head - you may want to tape them up - lay several individual tissues in the cylinders & run all pistons half way down - remove 1 tissue at a time when DONE all cleaning.

EVERY copper washer I've ever seen is reccomended NON Reusable - Certainly every one in the DSM Manual on FAR LESS stressful joints - The Copper crush washers (not really what I'd call an O Ring by ANY means) is dependent on a one-time crush-seal - For example a fresh RUBBER O-Ring has a little "rebound" to it - NOT SO with a copper washer! So yes I'd replace those little PITA's... & using old ones is probably the most likely source of your leak to say the least...

- Do the Copper Washers NOT seal directly to the block?
- A metal to metal seal in other words?
- Are these Copper washers at every sealing area??
- Are you sure you even NEED a Head gasket IF THERE ARE Copper gaskets all over the place at EVERY SEALING AREA - Water jackets, etc?
- I WONDER if you could go back with Rubber O Rings? & I mean WONDER?????
- AND where is an "O-Ringed" HEAD GURU when you need one on these Boards?

You may want to change Thread title to O RINGED HEAD TROUBLES & LET"S GET SOME MORE HELP!

 

[44pirate]

The O-ring's are only in the head. They are around the combustion chamber of the head.
Thanks for the tap info

 

[BUCK]

posted by 44pirate The O-ring's are only in the head. They are around the combustion chamber of the head.

So that means the Copper Gaskets actually HIT and SEAL TO - the Head Gasket - NOT directly to the BLOCK & it's NOT metal to metal - CORRECT?

- IF I'm correct there - you should definitely be able to reuse the Copper "inserts" as they are not a gasket as much as they are more an insert that mates to the Head Gasket. It didn't sound like you had a Piston Compression leak anyway - it was a water jacket leak...

 

[44pirate]

Originally posted by BUCK
So that means the Copper Gaskets actually HIT and SEAL TO - the Head Gasket - NOT the block & it's NOT metal to metal - CORRECT?

- IF I'm correct there - you should be able to reuse the Copper "inserts" as they are not a gasket as much as they are more an insert that mates to the Head Gasket.

That is correct.
Do you think additional torque is required.
I think my torque issues were do to the studs not being installed properly. I don't think I cleanded the threads good enough. I did vacumn them out. I used a stock OEM head bolt to clean them out. I ran them in and out a few times, a bunch of juck did come out. I can see how a tap would do a better job.
Thanks again.

 

[BUCK]

It's not just the Tap - You've GOT to dig / suck / blow / the crap out of the bottom of those holes - You may have compressed the crap down in there now but use a scribe & break it up - IF the bolt bottoms out on that crap you get a false Torque & readings like you were getting. Remember to use Anti Seize & ADD the Running Torque of the fastener to the Torque Spec. I know of no need for additional Torque - I doubt you'll need to exceed 80 Ft Lbs - spec is like max 72, add some for the Running Torque - Remember to use GOOD 1/2 drive extensions & sockets - put an adapter on the Torque wrench if you have to but NO FLEXY - SPRINGY 3/8 drive crap! We're here to Torque the Head Bolts - Not spring-load some rinky-dink Chinese 3/8" Extension!

Don't forget the Head Bolt Washers - the slightly Concave side goes DOWN.

 

[44pirate]

I'm using 1/2 drive. According to ARP they supplied molly lube for the studs.
Again thanks for the tips.

 

[BUCK]

"ARP BOLTS"? I thought that sounded wierd - use Molly (that IS Anti Sieze) on the Nuts then of course - & I always put some on the face of the Head Washer to prevent galling with the face of the Nut...

With 1/2 stuff you are Golden - Just take your time & Nail it - Get to work...

 

[44pirate]

Right after work.
I just hope I didn't do any further damage anywhere.
Much Thanks to you
Buck

 

[BUCK]

Don't forget to change Oil & Filter before you fire it up after you get it back together - it's hard not to get a little coolant in oil when pulling Head off even of you drain coolant first like specified... I'm getting to work on mine now - have a good day!

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by 44pirate
Right after work.
I just hope I didn't do any further damage anywhere.
...

Hi George: Much better you put out here than try this in PM.

If you have a lot of crud in the bolt holes you can use a drill bit to dig and loosen what the studs may have compressed. Once you have established what that depth is you can mark the drill bit with masking tape and use a battery drill to spot all the others. Don't scuff the threads with the drill, if you can't hold it steady put some tape or slide a piece of hose over the drill bit. When chasing threads you can use a blind hole or bottoming tap. If you are good you can do this with a battery drill but don't even think about it for starting.

Are their any picts of your head gasket on the Internet where we can see exactly how it's made??

Yeah, I didn't want to be the guy with the bad news about pulling it apart again.

Did you do the compression check as suggested??

BTW having extensions on a torque wrench wont change the torque value nor will having cheap sockets. Using a spring loaded wobbly or universal won't change the torque value either _UNLESS_ you do not keep it in perfect alignment. If you do have to use a universal you then must calculated the new foot lbs by measuring the distance off the straight line. For all practical applications anything under 15 degrees can be calculated, after that the side loads increase to where they become a significant factor.

This is not an inertia physics issue such as an impact wrench would create.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[44pirate]

Got the new HG on. Tommorrow I will fire it up.
Use alot more Molly lube this time.

 

[44pirate]

It's AAALLLIIIVVEEEEE
Running no smoke.
Everything is good except no Boost.
Boost leak test holds to 25psi.
Actuator is working. I only get like 3psi. I usually get 15psi without the EBC on. I have an adjustable actuator arm so I have it adjusted to 15.
I do have to retune.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by 44pirate
It's AAALLLIIIVVEEEEE
Running no smoke.
Everything is good except no Boost.
Boost leak test holds to 25psi.
Actuator is working. I only get like 3psi. I usually get 15psi without the EBC on. I have an adjustable actuator arm so I have it adjusted to 15.
I do have to retune.

Hot dang, hot dang!!!

Retune? Electrical or mechanical? Which actuator... wastegate?

BTW what exactly was the problem with the gaskct?

 

[44pirate]

Originally posted by GTM
Hot dang, hot dang!!!

Retune? Electrical or mechanical? Which actuator... wastegate?

BTW what exactly was the problem with the gaskct?

The wastegate.
Well I think I might not have set up the timing belt right. At idle I'm seeing 7-10 degrees timing (Pocketlogger). Before I would see 4-7.
I've got a shitload of lag, 4200 rpm when I finally get positive boost.
I logged as I was coming into work. Doing some OT to help pay for shit.

As far as the HG goes. I think I didn't have the studs in properly and did a poor job of prepping the holes so I got a bad tourqing.

I'm running SAFC and MAF T. With the 264/272 cams installed with the ported polished 5 angled valve job head and Ferrera SS valves, I'll have to do some tweeking.

 

[BUCK]

I SEE 7-10 on my Pocketlogger at idle & from what I see & read that is quite normal, Spec is 8 for running at 750-850 rpm at 190 Temp in NORMAL config (without Timing connector grounded) - the Ecu seems to find that range at idle even if your base timing is a little out of spec.

BUT - I set my BASE timing where I SEE 2.5 BTDC - because of the awful angle of sight you have when looking at the Timing Indicator - which IMO means mine is ACTUALLY AT 5 BTDC (spec) - I set my Pocketlogger to default to 5.

My favorite recent Threads on Head Install...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87171

and Timing setting...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92920

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by 44pirate
The wastegate.
Well I think I might not have set up the timing belt right. At idle I'm seeing 7-10 degrees timing (Pocketlogger). Before I would see 4-7.
I've got a shitload of lag, 4200 rpm when I finally get positive boost.
...
I'll have to do some tweeking.

It sure sounds like you have the overlap off to be loosing that much boost though the wastegate could be hanging open and a lot easier to check. Be careful.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[44pirate]

It sure sounds like you have the overlap off to be loosing that much boost though the wastegate could be hanging open and a lot easier to check. Be careful.



I have plenty of practice with the timing belt. First thing in the morning I will check it. Gotta use a straight edge this time. I thought I eyed it up pretty good.

 

[BUCK]

I just layed something thin on top of the Head & looked thru the Cam gears to sight them - but the Tricky part is Biasing the Exhaust Cam gear OUT OF TIME INITIALLY so it rolls INTO time when Belt is Tensioned - Use the grenade pin in Tensioner to measure the Tension setting - that's the easiest & most accurate method I know of...