Anybody Please Help Asap, Xmas Eve No Parts!!!!!!

[bosljeff]

Okay, I know I could do a search, but in case I can't find an answer to my specific question I started a new thread, especially since parts stores are closed now and probably until Friday and I worry I may not have my daily driver to drive to work the next couple of days.


PROBLEM/SYPTOMS: I was driving home and suddenly I lost what seemed to be my power steering. It felt like when a car dies while moving and how it is suddenly hard to steer, but still can be steered with a little muscle.

WHAT I FOUND: Got home, popped the hood and found a belt torn in half over near all the drive pulleys on the driver's side of the motor.

WHAT I ASSUME: The busted belt is my power steering pump belt or something like that (pseudo-newbie here).

AM I OK?: Since people remove their power steering pumps and related parts for weight savings, am I ok with this belt busted? If this is the case, in theory I can drive "forever" with is busted, right? I just will have to muscle it at low speeds and will be okay at higher.

Or is it going to effect other systems?

Please help asap since this is my only car and I can't get parts until Friday.

Thanks ahead of time and Merry Xmas!

Boz

 

[turboholic]

-the water pump/alternator belt still fine right? people change to none power steering via the steering rack, someone did mention they have to reroute the hoses on the rack, I'm not sure if the fluid will overheat if you steer without the pump working.

 

[Defiant]

Check the rubber hub in the harmonic balancer.

 

[bosljeff]

Originally posted by turboholic
-the water pump/alternator belt still fine right? people change to none power steering via the steering rack, someone did mention they have to reroute the hoses on the rack, I'm not sure if the fluid will overheat if you steer without the pump working.

What you are referring to is the drivebelt that goes around the alternator, water pump, and crankshaft right? If so, yes still intact.

 

[bosljeff]

Originally posted by Defiant
Check the rubber hub in the harmonic balancer.

I'm so sorry, but "harmonic balancer", you'll have to help me a little on that one.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by bosljeff

...
Please help asap since this is my only car and I can't get parts until Friday.

There should be no problem to the system driving for a day or so. It will make your muscles sore getting in and out of tight parking places but driving straight ahead won't be too noticable. Just remember when making a turn to have plenty of room and don't try to race oncoming traffic thinking you can make if only to find out you need a real handfull of wheel.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bosljeff]

Originally posted by GTM
There should be no problem to the system driving for a day or so. It will make your muscles sore getting in and out of tight parking places but driving straight ahead won't be too noticable. Just remember when making a turn to have plenty of room and don't try to race oncoming traffic thinking you can make if only to find out you need a real handfull of wheel.

Cheers,
GTM

If I may ask, what are your thought on the above statements (I am not trying to cause arguments/conflicts, I just want to bother whoever is willing to help right now) ?

Thanks for slowly settling my nerves.

Jeff

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by bosljeff
If I may ask, what are your thought on the above statements (I am not trying to cause arguments/conflicts, I just want to bother whoever is willing to help right now) ?

Thanks for slowly settling my nerves.

Jeff

I'm mortaly wounded, is there a doctor in the house. Just for laughs go look at my profile.

The reason for the resistance is you are having to force the fluid back up the lines into the pump which isn't turning. Running a bypass from one end of the rack to the other end will decrease the risistance significantly; however; since you like your power steering you are not going to modify the system for you don't like having oil coming out your backside and all the way up to your arm-pits you are going to forget that idea. You don't want to spend the $10 in fluid plus having to bleed the blasted system just to hook it back up.

We are a cool group here, if I missed anything someone will come along and point out I don't know squat about DSMs.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bosljeff]

Yeah, for laughs is right. I think I can trust you.

So, I shouldn't have to worry? I can drive to work in the am and be fine?

Do I need to worry about

"I'm not sure if the fluid will overheat if you steer without the pump working." ?

or

"Check the rubber hub in the harmonic balancer. " ?

OK, if not, I'm all good. So, should I go to NAPA or whatever on Friday and get both belts (Power steering pump and alternator/crankshaft/water belts) since I have to take one off to install the other?

Ideas, suggestions, insults?

 

[turboholic]

Originally posted by bosljeff
since I have to take one off to install the other?

-As for the harmonic balancer, sometime the rubber become deteriorate causing the belts to come off, but since your alt belt is still on, the balancer should still intact, you can check it if you want, it's the big pully on the crank.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by bosljeff
Yeah, for laughs is right. I think I can trust you.

So, I shouldn't have to worry? I can drive to work in the am and be fine?

Do I need to worry about

"I'm not sure if the fluid will overheat if you steer without the pump working." ?
or
"Check the rubber hub in the harmonic balancer. " ?

OK, if not, I'm all good. So, should I go to NAPA or whatever on Friday and get both belts (Power steering pump and alternator/crankshaft/water belts) since I have to take one off to install the other?

Ideas, suggestions, insults?

Sometimes senility sets in and I screw up but not this time. No prob with oil, your arms will fall off at the sockets first.

Yes, Defiant was correct in suggesting you should check the harmonic balancer. These can cause excessive belt wear plus the shreds could have wound through that pulley and damaged it. The additional load of installin a new belt just put it over the hill. Yes, good to drive to work.

If you don't know the history of the Alt. belt probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace it also. You can always throw it in the spare tire well for emergency spare.

What kind of insults did you want with that egg...

Give yourself an extra 10 min going to work as you find out what the car doesn't do... go where you point it.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bosljeff]

Originally posted by turboholic
-You don't have to remove the alternator belt to install the p/s belt, just need to remove the 5" steel bar on the motor mount bracket.
-As for the harmonic balancer, sometime the rubber become deteriorate causing the belts to come off, but since your alt belt is still on, the balancer should still intact, you can check it if you want, it's the big pully on the crank.

Yeah, this is the first belt to go since I have owned the car and now that this has happened, I look back to the last several days and I had some pretty bad belt squeeling when my engine was cold and I turned the wheel slowly. So I hope/figure it was just the belt's time to go.

As for changing them both, that was more because I'm there already, mine as well do the other one...

Thanks....in a way. Now I have to go to work in a couple of hours...I could've had a good excuse..

 

[bosljeff]

Originally posted by GTM
Yes, Defiant was correct in suggesting you should check the harmonic balancer. These can cause excessive belt wear plus the shreds could have wound through that pulley and damaged it. The additional load of installin a new belt just put it over the hill. Yes, good to drive to work.

If you don't know the history of the Alt. belt probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace it also. You can always throw it in the spare tire well for emergency spare.Cheers,
GTM

I promise this is close to being wrapped up.

I searched for harmonic balancer and several other things it has been called and I still have no idea what I'm physically looking for, especially since chunks from the belt are missing and I don't want to damage that pulley. Where is it and what am I looking for? Is it and "exterior" part, or something I have to see after taking something else apart?

 

[turboholic]

-Remove or rotate the front driver side wheel to the side, remove the side plastic flap, there'll be a 6" pully will a big nut on the center.

 

[bosljeff]

What else can the harmonic balancer be called? I'm looking in my Haynes:

Balance shaft tensioner, auto tensioner...?

 

[turboholic]

-Crank shaft pully. it's the pully where the alt belt and the AC belt go to.

 

[bosljeff]

Gotcha-Thanks.

So here is my plan:

1. Make sure no "teeth" are floating around anywhere on the pulleys or the harmonic balancer/crankshaft pulley.

Do I HAVE to do this before I drive? I looked at the old belt and only 5 of the little "teeth" are missing.

2. Drive for work and errands until Friday when auto parts stores are open
and get both belts (at least powerr steering and a back up alternator one.

3. Don't worry so much and go to bed for work in 3 hours.

Thanks so much all. Keep 'em coming

Jeff

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by bosljeff
Gotcha-Thanks.

So here is my plan:

Do I HAVE to do this before I drive? I looked at the old belt and only 5 of the little "teeth" are missing.

2. work and errands
and get both belts

3. Don't worry so much and go to bed for work in 3 hours.
Thanks so much all. Keep 'em coming
Jeff

Go to bed!

Replace both belts, keep old as spares in their boxes so you will know the next time.

At earliest reasonable time check the crank pulley.

Not sure what you mean by teeth, "V" grooves.

I'm fading fast, my dattalogger is driving me nuts and I too must sleep.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bosljeff]

Yup, getting up after my little nap for work this morning and driving with this problem was quite an adventure...especially manuevering (sp?) around in a too small parking garage.

Oh well, hopefully some place is open today so I can get a new belt.

Merry Xmas!

(Anyone know exactly what belt I might be needing? Is it any more specific than power steering pump belt?)

 

[bosljeff]

Oh, and when I'm checking the crankshaft pulley,

can anyone tell me what I'm looking for exactly as I sit there and stare at it?

Thanks!

 

[turboholic]

Originally posted by bosljeff
can anyone tell me what I'm looking for exactly as I sit there and stare at it?

-Take the old/broken belt with you so they can compare the lenght.
-In case you have to remove the harmonic balancer, only need to remove the 2 12mm bolts, don't have to touch the big one.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by bosljeff
Oh, and when I'm checking the crankshaft pulley, can anyone tell me what I'm looking for exactly as I sit there and stare at it?
Thanks!

In the pict _turboholic_ so kindly provided you can see the bonded black rubber insulator which seperates the hub from the actual pulley. This bond will completely shear in catastropic failures, in the original it's a smooth bead but as it starts to break you will see little chunks sticking outward. You you may notice that it doesn't run true but has a wobble. If you grab the pulley at 3:00 and 9:00 you should see no movement. You can buy replacements which use a more rigid center or even a solid metal casting, both of these will give a lot more belt noise.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bosljeff]

Originally posted by turboholic
-Take the old/broken belt with you so they can compare the lenght.
-In case you have to remove the harmonic balancer, only need to remove the 2 12mm bolts, don't have to touch the big one.

To see what is in the pic, I take off my driver's front tire and then the flimsy plastic stuff in the wheel well, right?

So, is the harmonic balancer the actual pulley or the black rubber insulator or the whole setup?

This would be helpful to know what I might need to be removing.

Two 12mm bolts? I see 4 bolts in the pic and one in the center...?

GTM:

Why would I want a new one that is solid that makes more belt noise?


Thanks for the pics/help guys! You have been very helpful.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by bosljeff

...
I take off my driver's front tire and then the flimsy plastic stuff in the wheel well, right?

So, is the harmonic balancer the actual pulley or the black rubber insulator or the whole setup?

This would be helpful to know what I might need to be removing.

Two 12mm bolts? I see 4 bolts in the pic and one in the center...?

GTM:

Why would I want a new one that is solid that makes more belt noise?


Thanks for the pics/help guys! You have been very helpful.

Yes, to see the pulley (harmonic balancer) the plastic must be removed. If you turn the wheel to a hard left you may not need to take the wheel off...?

The harmonic balance is the assembly, don't think it comes with the hub which is held in place with the single large bolt. The assembly is the pulley, rubber, and center section which is held in place with the 4 small bolts which must be removed to take off the harmonic balancer. This will leave the hub still attached to the crankshaft with the large bolt. Do loosen the belt tension first if you are going to remove it.

The single solid pulley won't come apart / break. It can also be available as an "underdrive" which is smaller in diameter thus spins the Alt. / wp at a lower ratio which the racers like for it gives less hp drag at lower rpm. They are not stuck in traffic running AC, headlights, fans etc. where you need to have the Alt spinning fast enough to keep up with the draw.

Some members have had more than 1 failure of the harmonic balancer thus don't want the worry and will go to the solid unit. You could do a search for harmonic balancer and see a wide variety of opinions, so it's up to you for what you want.

I have made repairs to this type design when they have broken on the road for you must stop the car or burn up the engine. If you drill 3 holes equal distance apart into the edge where you see the rubber you can then install 3 sheet metal screws (not machine screws) which will lock the outter pulley section to the center section. This will allow you to drive home at a safe speed if you are some hundred(s) of miles from home at 11:00pm when nothing is open for new parts. Been there, done that.

The belt noise is relative / subjective, you may not even notice it but just be aware if you like a quiet car the noise level under the hood will be a bit more.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[turboholic]

Originally posted by turboholic
[B-only need to remove the 2 12mm bolts, [/B]

-Sorry about that, it was a mis-type, should be 4.