How do i keep crank pulley from moving?!?

[Hocus]

There's no room to stick a screw driver in the holes. My pulley has just one bolt in the center, so i don't know what to do. Also, i moved the crank pulley counter-clockwise. I've heard this is bad for timing or something. WHAT DO I DO!!

Me now
I wanna be

Thanks

 

[Defiant]

That bolt holds the cam drive cog. Look for the four bolts around it.

 

[jpolizo]

The problem with moving the crank counter-clockwise is that it can cause the timing belt to skip a tooth (or more). Double check all the timing marks to make sure this did not happen (www.vfaq.com).

 

[Hocus]

There are no bolts around it. It looks like this (without the tool there)

<img SRC="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/pa9ae42299da94e30901be15596e0a47b/fac84c2d.jpg"/img>

 

[Lordmunch]

He's got a Non Turbo engine. The crank pulley is totally different than the turbo models. The best way to do it is to get an electric impact gun, If you don't have access to air tools.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Lordmunch
He's got a Non Turbo engine. The crank pulley is totally different than the turbo models. The best way to do it is to get an electric impact gun, If you don't have access to air tools.

There are at least a couple of other options assuming this is an auto transmission and simply putting it in gear with the wheels blocked and the brake set. He can pull the starter and wedge a hammer handle against the ring gear teeth. Another choice is to get a chain wrench which looks like the fabric strap oil filter wrenches. If proper protection by wrapping a rag under the chain so it doesn't dig into the pulley casting and marr the surface it can offer enough counter torque to keep the engine from rotating.

Another is to fill a cylinder with oil and then replace the spark plug, you will then be faced with having to remove the oil by cranking or some suction bulb and hose through the spark plug hole. Best to use the cylinder closest to the pulley so you don't run the risk of bending something. One of these will almost always work.

Using WD40 and a brass drift and hammer to shock it into better penetration may also help. A propane torch can be used but remember you have plastic and rubber in the immediate area so use proper care with heat shield made from tin cans and even wet rags stuffed behind them. Just be patient and use common sense for you don't want to destroy anything else.

If all else fails and you can put it back together plus drive to a shop, have them loosen or remove and reinstall just snug enough so you can drive home and finish your work.

Then there is the worst case senario which requires using a hack saw blade to cut almost to the shaft. With a "cold chisel" you then split the hub along the saw cut, needless to say new parts will be needed.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Defiant]

Aw, nuts, I apologize. Missed the N/T. Bah.

Thanks, GTM.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Defiant
Aw, nuts, I apologize. Missed the N/T. Bah.
Thanks, GTM.

Hmmmm, how's that egg taste. Just having fun if I may. Since I don't claim to be a DSM expert I didn't know the n/t pulley was different until someone else mentioned it here. In the last few decades much has changed in the automotive design and construction. This includes coatings which inhibit rust on crank pullies when assembeled at the factory. However when repaired it is common to degrease parts so that protection is lost and rust can set in if parts are fitted dry. Looking where he lives rain fall of 60" a year is common thus rust if not protected. And certainly there are many places here in the states where salt is used to prevent roads from freezing with the same and different corrosion problems. Salt being made up of chlorine and sodium, a metal which we all know conducts electricity you got a perfect battery constantly eating away at the different metals. Sometimes it helps to know these things when choosing repair / diagnosis and what to advise the owner as to costs.

Sometimes it helps to be a blacksmith and others a neurosurgeon. Then once in a great while playing the role of shrink though I had more experiences with that as service manager. I would have stayed in the profession were it not for the Mfg deciding they were not going to pay for diagnostic time. Absolute nonsense for sometimes you can spend 100 times more trouble-shooting the problem than the actual repair. A broken fan belt is one thing but comprehending a 4 way flasher circuit with a bulb test circuit check is no easy task especially if you have an intermittant failure with a transistor. Sadly I've watched the industry change to parts changers for they don't have the skills necessary to solve problems. With that mentality the mechanic has little choice but to grab a handfull of related components shove them in and send the car on it's way. From the customer's point of view they at least got a bunch of new parts that they can point at. From the mechanic's view it was all they could do to make a buck.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Hocus]

Wow, thanks GTM for all the ideas. Now i have some more options. I appreciate it, =)

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Hocus
Wow, thanks GTM for all the ideas. Now i have some more options. I appreciate it, =)

You are welcome, please let us know which method(s) you use and how it turns out.

Someone else replied to your querry about turning an engine backwards. There is no absolute answer for some you can and some you can't and maybe some you shouldn't.

A gear driven cam is safe unless the maker indicates not. A SOHC is usualy safe for the chain or belt isn't that long, a DOHC can get pretty iffy because the stretch is exaggerated and adjustment / tensioner is adequate when new but once worn it could jump cogs or teeth. From a practical standpoint if setting TDC and you overshoot it's not uncommon to back up a bit too much and then bring it back to the mark. What you do with your own car may let you do it without any problem for you know who to blame... hehehe. Doing it on a customer's car is pretty much a no no. If setting cams then you shouldn't perform that backup re-set mentioned above for you want ALL the stretch on the tensioner side. As was posted before, check to make sure nothing happened.

Something else you don't see very often are called striker wrenches. These are intended to be hit with a hammer which in this application might have prevented the engine from rotating backwards while undoing the nut. There is an easier way though not exactly endorsed by any mfg. for there can be danger involved. Using a substantial breaker bar in the crank pulley bolt and positioning it so that it's about 6" off the floor on the down stroke you hit the start for less than 1 second. The crank will of course turn but the windup initeria slams the breaker bar to the floor with a bang. The danger is should it slip out it could damage car parts or your body. This is less likely to happen just using the 1/2" drive but if you have a socket and a 6" extension there is a need to keep the socket from sagging and jumping off the nut or bolt. So you have to support it and/ or get a 2x4 lever to pry against some body part to hold it on while bumping the starter. In real life it took longer to write than to have done the job. Cheap tools may shatter so protect yourself from flying parts and don't stand over the pulley watching what happens for it's a good way to die. Don't do this with the cam belt off or for sure you will bend valves.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Defiant]

We called those "slugging" wrenches at the refineries, and on the ships. I don't know where you'd even look for one in the auto repair biz. Maybe a truck shop?

Originally posted by GTM
In the last few decades much has changed in the automotive design and construction.

Christ, isn't that the truth. You and I could incinerate the lines topping each other with things no one has ever heard of. I was cursed, the first car I did serious work on was my Datsun 2000 (actually, I'd already rebuilt my '60 Sprite, but who could call that serious?), and it was still new enough that I'd not been exposed to rusted fasteners, or that god-awful metalurgy the British used (I guess they blew their whole wad on Excalibur). Becoming a mechanic and working on things other than Datsuns was a scary eye-opener.... and then there were Toyotas. Driveshaft center carrier bearing? O, let us build you these two little fingers on the mount to hold it when you take it loose. Carb linkage hidden by the air cleaner? Here, try this lever we put on the firewall to tune it up with.... and then there was GM in the 80's. I know, we'll use a metric size no one even OWNs to hold down the distributor, and we'll put it where no one can reach it anyway!

There's much of it I don't miss.

 

[thehyena]

Originally posted by Defiant
Aw, nuts, I apologize. Missed the N/T. Bah.

Thanks, GTM.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Defiant
We called those "slugging" wrenches at the refineries, and on the ships. I don't know where you'd even look for one in the auto repair biz. Maybe a truck shop?

Christ, isn't that the truth. You and I could incinerate the lines topping each other with things no one has ever heard of. I was cursed, the first car I did serious work on was my Datsun 2000 (actually, I'd already rebuilt my '60 Sprite, but who could call that serious?), and it was still new enough that I'd not been exposed to rusted fasteners, or that god-awful metalurgy the British used (I guess they blew their whole wad on Excalibur). Becoming a mechanic and working on things other than Datsuns was a scary eye-opener.... and then there were Toyotas. Driveshaft center carrier bearing? O, let us build you these two little fingers on the mount to hold it when you take it loose. Carb linkage hidden by the air cleaner? Here, try this lever we put on the firewall to tune it up with.... and then there was GM in the 80's. I know, we'll use a metric size no one even OWNs to hold down the distributor, and we'll put it where no one can reach it anyway!
There's much of it I don't miss.

Hot dang! Maybe we should get a seperate forum for Nostalga Lane. It saddens me in a way that the stuff I know and a few other ol' farts is going to be lost for it's never been recorded in any repair manual. I keep promising myself but never got past the forward. It would be nice if the format here was broken up into a mailing list for then there would be recorded musings to draw from.

I think Snap-On may still have a few of the striker wrenches listed, otherwise there is a store on S. Fig. that's got most anything you could ever want. I still had to make my own valve spring compressor after going through about 20 they had listed.

Datsooon, I had worked for Frank Monise (#44) the year before when they started racing that bored out 190 Mercedes engine. Trust the Japanese to take what was a lemon and turn it into a gold mine with simply filling in those god awful side plates that rusted through. Combined with better metalurgy it paved the way for the 510, then adding 2 more cylrs the 240Z. Some place in there Toyota built a 2000 coupe complete with golf bag door, that was raced with some meager succes but nothing like the 240z. I was making money hand over fist doing carbs which I'd learned for all those Limy cars. Then the real scourge hit, the 260Z with Hitachs, what a nightmare. I finally made flow jig which used a vacuum cleaner so I could set them up off the car because by the time you got close the fuel was percolating in all the fuel hoses.

Never owned a Sprite though worked on them while at Peter Satori in Pasadena along with every other Brittish import, even did a stint in the Rolls shop. Wasn't it the late Spitfire you had to cut the tranny tunnel out to remove the tranny or drive shaft, can't remember everything I'm using a Spitfire front end for my Autocycle project for it's a Lotus design/build.

My first internal combustion transportation was a French made moped given to me in a gunney sack at 13, a year later my brother and I went halvies on a 1936 Buick, all of $4 each. After that was a 47 Dodge, 50 Chevy hard top convt. then another 47 Dodge, followed by a 37 Buick dual side mounts with full spare covers including hubcaps. bla bla bla. My first furrin jobbie was a TR3-A in the early 60's, then came the real cars... Lancia Aurelias, had 4 at one time all 2500cc. I went to work for Bunny Philips of Buggati fame, for a couple years, then to VW also for a couple years. Had a Lancia specialty shop after buying out all of Otto Zipper's stock for 5 years which cost me a marriage in the late 60's. A couple bad years then so back to VW and then to Datsun for almost 15 years including 5 as service manage.

Not a lot of experience with Detroit iron though owned others, mostly because my physical stature didn't permit pulling intake manifolds on V8s without climbing into the engine compartment. Beside they didn't really offer me much interest for they never experimented with anything. When I got my provisional teaching credential went to Los Angeles city schools and offered to start an auto shop class dealing with "imports", they all but laughed in my face. Every high school kid was running around in a some sort of VW but they were in complete denial there was anything of value to be learned. Lots of job offers though from all the prisons in the western United States to teach vocational auto shop. Damn, missed my chance eh? Room and board in Leavenworth hehehe.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Hocus]

Alright, i finally got it off. I just put a C-clamp on the pulley really tight, so when i turned the pulley, the clamp would hit the oil pan. It did the trick. I just hope it's easier to tighten it since i don't want to put a clamp on a brand new pulley.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Hocus
Alright, i finally got it off. I just put a C-clamp on the pulley really tight, so when i turned the pulley, the clamp would hit the oil pan. It did the trick. I just hope it's easier to tighten it since i don't want to put a clamp on a brand new pulley.

Hey, necessity is the mother of invention eh.

Use some very fine sandpaper 800-1000 grit water proof and go over the shaft a bit. If possible remove the "Woodruff" key before doing this. Clean well and then use a little anti-seize compound on the shaft and on the new pulley at assembly, make a test run if you like without the key in place. If things are really tight then you have a couple choices, you can heat the pulley which has a bit of oil so you can see if it smokes which means you have it to maybe 500 degrees. Then with the key in place shove it on the shaft hopefully enough to pick up several threads of the bold which you can then tighten with the car in gear. You don't want to go over the 500 degree F. for if it's not cast iron there is a risk of changing the metallurgical structure. Probably not a problem here but when replacing a starter ring gear on the flywheel you are dealing with hardened metals which are an issue just as tranny gears can be a problem.

Another choice is to remove the key and using chrome polish lap the hub to the shaft by rocking it back and forth in a circular motion and advancing onto the shaft as permitted. Stop every so often and clean all the crud away, then apply new polish. Again clean everything anti-seize and tighten to spec.

So how are those skinned knuckles healing up...

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Hocus]

Originally posted by GTM

So how are those skinned knuckles healing up...

They're healing up great, thanx

This is a really frustrating job. Now that i got the bolt off, i can't get the pulley off. I rented a harmonic balancer removal tool and drilled three holes in the pulley to get it out, but the bolt that you tighten on the tool is too big to fit through the hole in the pulley. So i rented a tool like that pictured above, and same problem, the bolt can't fit through the hole. Am i forgetting something or something? I know that without getting that bolt through the hole, there's nothing for the tool to push against, except the pulley itself. Which would not work of course.

Please Help!!! This is driving me insane!!
Thanks for all the great help so far btw.

 

[Defiant]

Put a socket that's small enough to fit through the pulley between the crank nose and the screw end on the puller.

Now, then, back to the hijacking....

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by GTM


Hot dang! Maybe we should get a seperate forum for Nostalga Lane.

Sure would be nice for those who can't get to sleep...

It saddens me in a way that the stuff I know and a few other ol' farts is going to be lost for it's never been recorded in any repair manual.

Yeah, once someone's gone, endless amounts of what they knew is as well.

I think Snap-On may still have a few of the striker wrenches listed, otherwise there is a store on S. Fig. that's got most anything you could ever want.

Every ship you see to the west has plenty...

Datsooon, I had worked for Frank Monise (#44) the year before when they started racing that bored out 190 Mercedes engine. Trust the Japanese to take what was a lemon and turn it into a gold mine with simply filling in those god awful side plates that rusted through.

Well, the cam chain arrangement on the U-20 was a bit problemmatic, but they cured it (and most other OHC shortcomings up to the time) with the L-16. If only they'd added hydraulic lifters...

Some place in there Toyota built a 2000 coupe complete with golf bag door, that was raced with some meager succes but nothing like the 240z.

That "golf bag door" was where the battery lived. I've heard talk that Toyota and Nissan made a deal, Toyota'd not bring in their 2000-GT (Yamaha built those motors, like the SHO Taurus) and Nissan would keep the Patrol out of the US. Both were better vehicles in their class, but Toyota had no reason to suspect the Z was going to take off- its popularity cost us at least a year of Roadster production, as Nissan changed over the 2-Liter production line to make Zs.

I was making money hand over fist doing carbs which I'd learned for all those Limy cars. Then the real scourge hit, the 260Z with Hitachs, what a nightmare.

Yeah, the round-tops were better than anything Skinner's Union ever put together, because of the lifting pin and the nice, big, knurled adjuster nut for the jets. No more of that absurd re-centering crap.

I finally made flow jig which used a vacuum cleaner so I could set them up off the car because by the time you got close the fuel was percolating in all the fuel hoses.

And not even a nice, clean Colortune would help. I still remember the insulation kits for the 260 squaretops.

Wasn't it the late Spitfire you had to cut the tranny tunnel out to remove the tranny or drive shaft, can't remember everything I'm using a Spitfire front end for my Autocycle project for it's a Lotus design/build.

I was careful enough to avoid Triumphs, although the TR-6 still wins the beauty pageant. "While England got the TR-5 with fuel injection, the US got the TR-250 with Stromberg sidedrafts.... and apologies."

My first furrin jobbie was a TR3-A in the early 60's, then came the real cars... Lancia Aurelias, had 4 at one time all 2500cc.

The Datsun 2000 used to love to embarass the Tractors... and Lancias? Damn them for not making a Stratos road car. God, what a beauty. Ah, but so was the Flaminia....

Had a Lancia specialty shop after buying out all of Otto Zipper's stock for 5 years which cost me a marriage in the late 60's.

There's a lost name....

A couple bad years then so back to VW and then to Datsun for almost 15 years including 5 as service manager.

Yeah, the magager at Napa Datsun offered me an apprenticeship.... a path not taken...

Lots of job offers though from all the prisons in the western United States to teach vocational auto shop. Damn, missed my chance eh? Room and board in Leavenworth hehehe.

Oh, I suspect you could still get that without much effort....

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Hocus


They're healing up great, thanx

This is a really frustrating job. Now that i got the bolt off, i can't get the pulley off. I rented a harmonic balancer removal tool and drilled three holes in the pulley to get it out, but the bolt that you tighten on the tool is too big to fit through the hole in the pulley. So i rented a tool like that pictured above, and same problem, the bolt can't fit through the hole. Am i forgetting something or something? I know that without getting that bolt through the hole, there's nothing for the tool to push against, except the pulley itself. Which would not work of course.

Please Help!!! This is driving me insane!!
Thanks for all the great help so far btw.

Driving your insane, try dealing with customers. Or is this a test?

You can always email.

Not a problem, I'll have your doing brain surgery before this is over.

Put the bolt back in with three complete turns, use the puller in conjunction with the "C" clamp to prevent crank from turning.

Using a 3/8" drive rachet rotate the puller screw until the pulley goes "pop" and falls on your face. Unless you are King Kong the most you are going to get is 35 lbs torque.

If the pulley starts to laugh at your feeble attempts then get out the big guns and wave the Bic lighter in all it's glory in front of the butane torch... chuckle to self hahaha.

Heat, heat, heat that sob hub (remember the oil trick), hit puller screw on head first with love tap then smack it good. Tighten screw 1/4 turn, say some bad words and smack it again, tighten again, smacke again, say bad words and smack it again. Repeat until no progress or you run out of bad words. Some sob stuck it on there and you are going to take it off, this isn't a maybe or if and but for nor why thing. Welcome to blacksmith 101. Yes you have to make love to what you are trying to accomplish and a 20 lb sledge is only going to knock the crank out the back of the engine. You are pushing and pulling at the same time with a little coaxing from the hammer and few bad words.

This is not rocket sience, you got a mothaaaah that ain't gonna cooperate and requires some extra special love. Remember in an earlier post you had the option of using a broken piece of hack saw blade wraped in a rag so you could saw. That wasn't a joke, there is a reason I had 7 rows of calouses in my hand. Oh and yes the crank survived. I cannot say that in the length of time it took to think through or write this the job would be complete... you just have not learned all the swear words.

With respect and concern,
GTM

 

[Hocus]

Ahhhh, what a relief. I finally got the frickin' thing off. Thanks a lot for your help guys. I can't believe i didn't think of putting the bolt back in to use with the puller. But, that did the trick. Now, tomorrow....putting the new one on. That should be fun. I don't think i'll have problems, then again i didn't think i'd have this much trouble trying to take the damn thing off. Thanks again,
Nick

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Hocus
Ahhhh, what a relief. I finally got the frickin' thing off. Thanks a lot for your help guys. I can't believe i didn't think of putting the bolt back in to use with the puller. But, that did the trick. Now, tomorrow....putting the new one on. That should be fun. I don't think i'll have problems, then again i didn't think i'd have this much trouble trying to take the damn thing off. Thanks again,
Nick

Wait till you see what follows. ) Medic!!

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Defiant
Sure would be nice for those who can't get to sleep...Yeah, once someone's gone, endless amounts of what they knew is as well.Every ship you see to the west has plenty...Well, the cam chain arrangement on the U-20 was a bit problemmatic, but they cured it (and most other OHC shortcomings up to the time) with the L-16. If only they'd added hydraulic lifters...That "golf bag door" was where the battery lived. I've heard talk that Toyota and Nissan made a deal, Toyota'd not bring in their 2000-GT (Yamaha built those motors, like the SHO Taurus) and Nissan would keep the Patrol out of the US. Both were better vehicles in their class, but Toyota had no reason to suspect the Z was going to take off- its popularity cost us at least a year of Roadster production, as Nissan changed over the 2-Liter production line to make Zs.Yeah, the round-tops were better than anything Skinner's Union ever put together, because of the lifting pin and the nice, big, knurled adjuster nut for the jets. No more of that absurd re-centering crap.And not even a nice, clean Colortune would help. I still remember the insulation kits for the 260 squaretops.I was careful enough to avoid Triumphs, although the TR-6 still wins the beauty pageant. "While England got the TR-5 with fuel injection, the US got the TR-250 with Stromberg sidedrafts.... and apologies."The Datsun 2000 used to love to embarass the Tractors... and Lancias? Damn them for not making a Stratos road car. God, what a beauty. Ah, but so was the Flaminia....There's a lost name....Yeah, the magager at Napa Datsun offered me an apprenticeship.... a path not taken...Oh, I suspect you could still get that without much effort....

Whilst we await the next blow (pun intended) divergance from rusted parts is in order. Actually I rarely have problem with sleeping, it's a waste of time. Too much to do, places to go, and people to see.

I've always professed that a bronze statue would be an insult. If I can provoke ideas and solutions then my life's goal are achieved. I am not the origin, only a part of a catalyst, the sad part is who cares. Doesn't matter that in Russia mechanics made more money because of their skills than Doctors. Hells bells off on a brief tangent, L.A. transit strike is over $8.50 against $10 hr for mech. Ah the useless mechanic. I'll say it again, we as mechanics are better at our jobs than any Doctor.

No, no, no, I would not endorse any business, only there is a need outside our industry who has some toolss.

I'm at a loss, sparks fly, I know what they mean, all that follow need only some magic tool which look to their data logger which has been fed the CORRECT info based on carbon and silicon content.

We speak of percolating fuel, who to day knows or even cares what the boiling point of gasoline is and so what ... aint gonna get me a cup of coffee.

nono, nono, my map light, me head is stuck, gimme an instant answer, screw you, gotta have it, WTF you anint gonna, sup wt zat . Hey yo mf fix my car.

It is so nice so refreshing to hear I'm stuck Hey pay the $10fng dolla an hir a friggin babysitter in between commercials.

I bailed out of this place before because half of what I read was from some book company harvesting what we gave our lives to help and make money. Tell me about Dr's ethich, I've seen some pretty unqualified mechanics.

And like always we are the whore, and no soap box is not off on this one.

Don't get me wrong, I loved what I did, I loved making things work, I loved my customers, but I read here instant gratification like mas...ing. I've no problem teaching, I've no problem sharing my life's work. But when some arse wants to take me to task because he know all the answers and can't wipe his pampers I draw the line.

Has noting to do with this thread or the immediate people involved. I have and always will bend over backwards to help anyone. If I see this arse again on this board then kiss my backside good by.

Captain USSV Margin
Radio Call KUS 4106

GTM

 

[Hocus]

IT'S DONE!!! I've finished it. Me and my friend worked on it for 8 hours straight, and got it done. Had some squeaky belts for a while, but adjusted them and it's all good now. The car doesn't seem to accelerate right though. There was noise coming from the EGR solenoid when i first started it up, but it's not really noticable now, it might have gone away. It seems almost like there's something holding the car back from accelerating faster. I read somewhere that it takes 3-5 days for the ECU to get used to the new pulley. BTW, i got an AFX UDP on now. The stock pulley was about to come apart, so i figured i mind as well get an aftermarket pulley. But it's not giving any gains that i can notice.

Again thanks for all the help. I had no idea i would have this much trouble.

GTM, you have been a big help by taking the time to write long explanations, and lots of options. Thanks again,
Nick