Smoking at idle

[blueman803]

I was driving my car along and I hit roughly 7 psi. Upon stopping, the car dies. I crank it up and drive a little further. Every time I reach a stop the car wants to die. I check for vacuum leaks and sure enough, I have a leak. I fixed it, car still will not run worth a crap. I changed the ECU, TPS, ISC, and Throttlebody. The car runs good, but had started to smoke. The car does not smoke until 10 or so seconds after starting and will continue to smoke at idle. The smoke appears grayish.

I performed a boost leak test at the turbo and I noticed a distinct bubbling noise. I then connected straight to the intake manifold and I did not hear any bubbling noise. Did a compression check just to confirm it wasn't a head gasket. 195 across all 4 cylinders without being warmed up. The engine has less than 1500 miles on it, and never smoked until recently.

I pulled the intercooler pipe off and did notice a slight amount of oil. How much is too much and indicates a problem? I eliminated the lines that go back into the intake, except for the bov. The bubbling noise makes me think it has something to do with the turbo, but I am unsure of wether the coolant or oil was bubbling. Anyone got any suggestions on what to do to confirm it is the turbo or any other problems it could be?

 

[oldman]

1. It's normal to leak air past the turbo seal to oil pan during a static pressure test, the key is whether you're leaking oil. Instead of checking the intake pipe, check the licp instead. If it also has a light film of oil, clean it and check again in two days.

2. How much pressure was the system able to hold and for how long was the system able to hold during your pressure test straight to the TB elbow? Was air coming out of the oil cap?

3. Have you inspect the pcv?

4. What is your vacuum reading at idle?

 

[blueman803]

1) I checked the LICP and it did have an oil film
2) It wouldn't hold pressure for any amount of time really. The throttle body shaft seals were leaking. I plan on replacing those as soon as possible. The system was only pressurized to 15 psi.
3)Does the PCV really matter when it is eliminated? Its basically an open system with a filter.
4) Vacuum was around 17-20 PSI

 

[oldman]

1) I checked the LICP and it did have an oil film

But you just re-routed the breather, why I said to check in a couple of days after you clean it.

2) It wouldn't hold pressure for any amount of time really. The throttle body shaft seals were leaking. I plan on replacing those as soon as possible. The system was only pressurized to 15 psi.

You can't rule out vcuum/boost leak until you fix them all, 20psi for 30 seconds.

3)Does the PCV really matter when it is eliminated? Its basically an open system with a filter.

Yes but not in the way you are thinking of. Did you hollowed out the pcv valve or replace it with a straight fitting? Excessive crankcase pressure? Dipstick popping?

Also, are you venting? What's the fuel pressure?

 

[blueman803]

But you just re-routed the breather, why I said to check in a couple of days after you clean it.

I meant to say they have been eliminated since the rebuild. There are simply no lines returning into the intake other than the bov. So it has been roughly 1000 miles since the lines were removed and everything was clean.

Yes but not in the way you are thinking of. Did you hollowed out the pcv valve or replace it with a straight fitting? Excessive crankcase pressure? Dipstick popping?

It is replaced with a straight fitting.

Also, are you venting? What's the fuel pressure?

I am recirculating. The fuel pressure is 27 psi right off the fuel filter at idle.

 

[oldman]

I meant to say they have been eliminated since the rebuild. There are simply no lines returning into the intake other than the bov. So it has been roughly 1000 miles since the lines were removed and everything was clean.

Then it's clear that at least the turbo seal is leaking oil.

Do you have a turbo ECU in the car? In your profile it said 450s, I'm wondering how you're tuning them and perhaps the grey smoke is from running rich.

Was air coming out of the oil cap?

Was air still leak out of the oil cap with the turbo and pcv bypassed? If so, possibly valve seals and rings. Have you done a compression test yet?

 

[blueman803]

I performed a compression check and did not record the exact values. All of them were around 195 compression. No cylinders were further than 7 from the others.

The car is basically a turbo car. It has a turbo ecu, resistor pack, and injectors. I have a 255 fuel pump but the afpr should be taking car of that.

I did not notice any air leaking past the oil cap, and since it is a straight fitting instead of a pcv valve, wouldn't the air escape there first? I didn't think it was anything to do with rings or valve seals since I had such good compression.

 

[oldman]

Valve seals would have nothing to do with your compression numbers. Good compression also does not always mean good ring/cylinder.

 

[blueman803]

How do I verify good rings/pistons/seals?

 

[oldman]

How do I verify good rings/pistons/seals?

Don't worry about it for now, it will require visual inspections and taking measurements with the head and oil pan off. As for the valve seal, you can remove the exhaust manifold and check the valve guide in the exhaust ports for signs of oil leakage. At least you have confirm that some oil is leaking through the turbo but smoking at idle usually points to the valve seals. What also bothers me is you said grayish smoke which indicates rich conditions, oil should be blueish.

 

[blueman803]

Change the o2 sensor maybe? It doesnt start immediately. It will run for 15-20 seconds before it starts to smoke. I have a pocketlogger I could see what the voltage is at for idle?

 

[97EclipseGS-T]

hey wats up guys...yeah I just wanted to ad an experience. My car was running like crap at this one point and my throttle position egine code went on. I cleared it with my pocketpc and kept running it and keeping track of logging on the pc. Well, like a mont later I was smoking alittle bit. Not really too much, but.....I took my UICP off and noticed an oil film. THen I took off the LICP and also noticed oil, I pulled my intake off and i looked at the intake side of the tubo and noticed a small amount of oil.. I took the turbo off and holy crap, the WORST shaft play I have ever seen in a turbo.......The bearings went

Take your intake off and try to whiggle the turbing on the turbo, if you can, its posssible your bearings can be gone......if you have any comments old wise one, leave some feedback....No one is perfect.

 

[blueman803]

I am 100% sure the smoke was blue and is oil now. I checked the turbo and it has no shaft play that I can feel. Do I need to remove the turbo to check for shaft play? Any other ideas where it could be?


Edit: I just disconnected the accordian intake from the turbo completely. I cranked it to see if I could see any oil buildup and the car ran. How in the world does a car run when there is nothing to measure the air flow?

 

[oldman]

We have already concluded that the oil in the licp is from the turbo seal, the question is why? Shaftplay is only one of the causes of failing seal. High oil pressure/volume on the oil feed, poor oil return capacity and excessive crankcase pressure can also prompt temporary oil leak through the seals. This is what I suggest.

1. Install an OEM pcv and route it back to the IM and see if smoking disappears.

2. Check your oil return line and make sure it isn't kinked.

 

[blueman803]

Oil return line is the stock oil return line and was purchased brand new at the time of the rebuild. It does not appear to be kinked.

Can you explain the reasoning behind the PCV? I am lost on that one. A straight fitting would release all the pressure right? How much blowby is normal?

The balance shafts have been eliminated, so higher oil pressure is a possibility.

I know 100% it is the turbo now. I disconnected the intake and by passed the turbo by connecting it straight to the throttle body. Smoking stopped after a few seconds. Hooked it back up to the turbo and it started smoking within 30 seconds. So I know that is the problem.

 

[oldman]

Can you explain the reasoning behind the PCV? I am lost on that one. A straight fitting would release all the pressure right? How much blowby is normal?

The best crankcase ventilation route is always the stock locations where you get a nice pull from the vacuum in the intake. Some thing is making your turbo leak, excessive crankcase pressure can also cause poor return capacity. With that said, since you're feeding from the filter location with the balance shaft removed, very likely you're pushing 100psi+, maybe look into some kind of restrictor on the feed line.

 

[blueman803]

So the stock line comes straight off the filter? And that could be 100+psi at idle? Or are you saying it was exposed to 100+ psi and is now leaking as a result?

 

[oldman]

So the stock line comes straight off the filter? And that could be 100+psi at idle? Or are you saying it was exposed to 100+ psi and is now leaking as a result?

Probably not at idle but removing the balance shaft will increase the oil pressure dramatically, even at idle. Do a search, I have read many brand new turbo smoking within 500 miles due to oil pressure related issues. I'm no expert on this subject as I never had to deal or look into this problem, just giving you ideas to go on.

 

[blueman803]

Cool, I really appreciate it and will do the searching. Would an oil cooler lower oil pressure at all? I did install the 90 oil cooler

 

[oldman]

Cooling should help but probably insignificant compares to the increase cause by balance shaft removal.

 

[blueman803]

I was hoping the pressure drop over the oil cooler and the oil squirters would even that out.

 

[blueman803]

From what I have read it seems the majority of problems stem from 2nd gens feeding straight off the filter. I checked and the turbo is fed from the head. Maybe it was just this turbo's time to go? I don't believe the pressure at the head is increased to the point it would cause the seals to blow, am I wrong?

 

[oldman]

You're absolutely correct, for some reason I assumed you were feeding from the filter location.

With that said, since you're feeding from the filter location with the balance shaft removed, very likely you're pushing 100psi+, maybe look into some kind of restrictor on the feed line.

If you're feeding from the head, oil feed/pressure should not be your problem.