more knocking, not the bearings

[DSMatMSU]

well ive been having this 'phantom knock' lately... its only been 3,000 miles after the build, so im thinking OH SHIT... motor is feasting on the bearings.... so i dropped the pan... and that thing is DAMN clean... on the oil p/u looks like some RTV flakes, and maybe some casting pieces... but other than that NOTHING... so im assuming that my bearings safe for now.... the thing that got me scared was the stock oil pressure gauge... it reads all over the place... and i noticed psi actually going down under WOT.... and then it pops back up after im done.... *needs aftermarket oil gauge*

the symptoms were a loud audible knock that kicks in around 4500, sounds like a whistleting rattling sound... under heavy load i have another really even more nasty, but similar sound.... now, if this was the bearings making all this noise... i would have at least SOME shavings in the pan... but i have NEXT TO NOTHING in the pan.... the knock sensor picks it up too, so i have some retarded ass timing....

im guessing?? crank pulley?? alternator? or pwr str?? it sounds as if thats the general area the noise is coming from, but i cant be for certain... maybe its the oil pump? i dont have my BSs either... so, any input would be GREAT... it makes the noise anytime it reaches said RPM.... out of gear, underload, heavy load, light load, parked....

 

[NA All The Way]

Well I can relate to your prob very well I am afraid. I recently built a 6 bolt motor and installed bs elliminator kit and I noticed a knocking noise comming from what seemed to be near the timming belt area. So I decided to rev the motor and let what happen just happen. And sure enough it did. The engine died or it more like came to a sudden hault. So I tried to turn it my hand and was unsuccsesfull. I finnaly got it to rotate by hand but it took way to much effort to just ignore it. I tried to restart it and it ran horrably, I noticed there was no oil pressure. It went from having 100psi to having 0psi. So after checking the oil pressure manually I deffinitly had no oil pressure. Out came the motor and then off came the front cover. I noticed that the oil pump had seized ( the new oil pump I must add). So now I am hoping that the damage does not go beyond this point. So what I am saying is that you need to check the oil pump gear and make sure that it spins freely.

 

[DSMatMSU]

sounds reasonable to me.... i didnt get a new pump during the rebuild, because i 'thought' the one i had was sufficent.... plus i was kinda tight on budget at the time... so anyway... ive always had oil pressure... allthough it is very low at idle, and then recently its been spuratic... anyhow, ive always paid attention to the gauge for whats it worth, i never dog on it right after idle, i let it build up oil-pressure first... hopefully i havent done any major damage to the bearings... like i said, the pan was pretty clean inside... and ive been somewhat gentle to her... it is my DD and all too... ive made some trips back home, its 160 miles one way on the interstate... ive made that round trip about 3 times with her, and the only time she let me down was when a heater hose busted open... but that was a quick fix....

dont you order a pump and front case together?? like 150 bucks?? ill get to searching for one, but im sure someone has a recommendation??? might find me an oil press gauge too

 

[Defiant]

on the oil p/u looks like some RTV flakes, and maybe some casting pieces...

Those aren't "casting pieces". Something's oil-starved. Your motor is toasting, and until pulled and disassembled, you won't know what. .

 

[DSMatMSU]

when im talking about pieces... there were litterly two... right down by the plug... the pieces on the filter were flakes of RTV, they were orange and clear.... and there wasnt really that much of it either... but there werent any thin shavings like when ive seen other motors oil pans after a spun/bad bearing.... i know something is definately not right... gonna order a new pump and housing; along with a gauge.... but with that small amount of pieces?? on a freshly built motor with 3000 miles on it??? i tried to be as clean as possible, but im sure some shit got in there... and this is the first time ive had the pan off.... ive even had a magnetic drain plug in there... and every oil change has been very clean, other than one time a hair line or two of metal, no longer than a cm...

*just trying to be optimistic* but hey...
well see what happens with this pump....

oh yea, i checked all my clearances again... everything was still in spec...

 

[DSMatMSU]

well i pulled the #1 piston (closest front) bearing cap, bearings looked fine, no chunks or chips gone, and no abnormal wear in the center or anything... pretty unifrom wear.... then i pulled the oil squirter... it was broke right at the neck, it looks like the piston was nicking it... could that cause low oil pressure? being broke like that??? i guess the knocking could have been caused by this? im going to still look into this oil pump.....

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

well i pulled the #1 piston (closest front) bearing cap, bearings looked fine, no chunks or chips gone, and no abnormal wear in the center or anything... pretty unifrom wear.... then i pulled the oil squirter... it was broke right at the neck, it looks like the piston was nicking it... could that cause low oil pressure? being broke like that??? i guess the knocking could have been caused by this? im going to still look into this oil pump.....

Usually oil squirters wont break off on their own. Well, they shouldnt. The machine shop idiots may have hit the squirter with the piston skirt and bent it down a little, causing the counterweight of the crank to smack it. As for the knocking sounds, it could easily be piston slap. I know, its a possible harsh reality, but u gotta know if thats it or not. Dont ask me how i found this kinda stuff out.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

dont you order a pump and front case together?? like 150 bucks?? ill get to searching for one, but im sure someone has a recommendation??? might find me an oil press gauge too [/QUOTE]


UUHHH actually, a brand new pump+front case assy ran me about $400 buddy yeah it hurts. I had low oil pressure too, pulled engine and put new pump on and blocked a balance shaft oil bearing and it was still low. Needless to say my engine is sitting in my garage gettin ready for a re-rebuild.

 

[DSMatMSU]

piston slap eh??? enlighten me???
i used 95 pistons on my 1g rods... bored 20 over...
everything was balanced... the rings had the proper gap... seriously doubt it was overbored, ive got good compression (allthough i dont know what causes slap, im jsut speculating) allthough i pulled the head about 1500 into the rebuild... i noticed at 0* and 180* (looking at the motor in the car) there were some black scuffings... i hit the cyls with a scuff pad before putting the head back on, it came off pretty easily...

i dont rule out anything, because this damn car never seizes to amaze me... but like i said, the noise appears to be coming from the timing area... ive heard a spun bearing and it sounded like the noise was coming from the head... i would imagine piston slap would be similar... could the rods be rattling around but yet to start shaving off chunks of metal?? its probablly been doing this for a good while now... long enough to leave SOMETHING in the pan... only other thing i can think off is the clearance btw the bearings and crank, not side to side, but the mating surface (that the right term?? its late)

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

piston slap eh??? enlighten me???
i used 95 pistons on my 1g rods... bored 20 over...
everything was balanced... the rings had the proper gap... seriously doubt it was overbored, ive got good compression (allthough i dont know what causes slap, im jsut speculating) allthough i pulled the head about 1500 into the rebuild... i noticed at 0* and 180* (looking at the motor in the car) there were some black scuffings... i hit the cyls with a scuff pad before putting the head back on, it came off pretty easily...

i dont rule out anything, because this damn car never seizes to amaze me... but like i said, the noise appears to be coming from the timing area... ive heard a spun bearing and it sounded like the noise was coming from the head... i would imagine piston slap would be similar... could the rods be rattling around but yet to start shaving off chunks of metal?? its probablly been doing this for a good while now... long enough to leave SOMETHING in the pan... only other thing i can think off is the clearance btw the bearings and crank, not side to side, but the mating surface (that the right term?? its late)

Ok, i stand corrected!! It may NOT be piston slap if you used 2g pistons. Thats just me. I had outstanding compression and still had the worse piston slap, 190psi across the board to be exact. I dont know how my slap came to be either, all i know is that i can move my piston back and forth with my fingers with almost NO effort. Also the cyl walls are soured from the slapping and moving back and forth action. I cant feel the marks the pistons left, but they are there with reason. Pretty disgusting if you ask me. At least your motor lasted until 1500 miles. My motor lasted a whole...hmmmm lets see...300 miles

 

[DSMatMSU]

well i got everything back together today... in the process i blocked off the oil squirters, just to see what happened to my oil pressure and because two of them broke off when i was inspecting them (they were allready cracked)... it obviously went up a little... but everything else is the same

anyway, i still have the same noise and i dont think its anything internal... it kicks in w/o fail at abuot 4500 rpm... i only have the pwr str pump and the alternator... so, i think ima take the belts off just to see what happens... allthough i dont know how far i can get w/o the alternator... ...
and the only other thing i can think of is a harmonic balancer about to seperate???

im about out of ideas after that... i dont have balance shafts either...

 

[DSMatMSU]

well i pulled the acces. belts today... all the bolts i can get to w/o taking the timing cover off are tight... i did noticed that the alternator bracket that bolts onto the waterpump was a little loose to start with... but i tighened it up and the noise is still there.... looks like ill be taking the timing cover off...

got my lazy ass out there took everything off, down to the timing cover... and no more noise!! ... wonder what it was?? i dont have all the bolts in my timing cover? just because some are impossible to get too... but i dont see how a plastic cover could be making a metallic noise... i did things it steps too, took off alternator... listen for noise.... took off pwr str, listen for noise, took of balancer pulley, listen for noise... then i removed both the motor mount and the t-cover... and no noise... none of these bolts were loose in the process... but w.e its gone now, and ill see what i can do to prevent this when i put it back together... my cover is in pretty bad shape tho, the pulleys have had a feast on it...

 

[DSMatMSU]

well i got a different style bracket at the j-yard (my 90 was different) and now i can finally tighten the alternator...

but when i reach ~4k it starts screaming??? im assuming this is the alternator, as it wasnt making this noise when the belt was kinda loose, but now that its good and tight (not too tight mind you)
just thinking, i guess the waterpump is on that belt as well?? (i have no pwr str)

do alternators have a bearing of some kind in them?? maybe its shot?? sucks diagnosing problems when your poor....

 

[TURFNNSURF]

Have you checked the main crank pully? maybe the harmonic balancer is going bad. It run the Alt so when you tightened the Alt belt you may be putting more stress on the Harmonic balancer. just a thought?

 

[DSMatMSU]

figured it out, has something to do with the power steering pump... i guess the pulley is starting to seperate or something... because if i hold it, there is no noise... even if the belt is off, it vibrates like hell... and when the belt is on, you can see the pulley start wobbling... it does this with the belt off or while the belt is on...

might be time to switch to manual steering...

 

[FunkMasterChipZ]

piston slap is what occurs when the piston flops back and forth against the cylinder wall...it happens when there is too much clearance from the cylinder to the cylinder wall....so if ur block was machined improperly(GM ), overheated in some cases or something marked it up and noone honed it properly then u would have piston slap...but if its ur power steering pump then it might not be piston slap