best way to address serious transmission issue

[1Gina2G]

Okay so basically, I have a rebuilt transmisson from dogbox racing, which apparently stoped their buisness within months of finishing my transmission...which is why my warranty no longer exists..

I moved the car out of the garage to do a startup, noticed first when I turn the starter over the car bumps forward the TINIEST bit, you can barely feel/notice. Nothing like the force of bumping the starter in 1st gear.

after attempting to move the car back in the garage, I noticed more resistance in neutral, sure enough - I look and the timing is trying to move! I imediatley stopped and tried messing with the shifter itself a few more times, and then I went to shifting the transmission directly at the levers the shift linkage attaches to, didn't move to neutral ANY DIFFERENT

with the clutch pressed in, the timing/ crank will be fully disengaged from the transmission, I KNOW i put the clutch & pressure plate on right! torqued correctly & evenly, threadlocker on everything down there. Nothing feels broken, just not aligned.

So the car's stuck outside now...and I know the transmission has to come out atleast. This is a manual AWD transmission BTW..

^-That basically is the short skinny of what's going on. I'd like to get some opinions and/or tips on what I can do..this is what I've come up with:

-remove the transmission myself, buy a 'known to work' used trans from someone, install that & hope for the best. possible cost $400-$1000

-buy a transmission from a junkyard for cheap, ship it for a rebuild, install newly rebuilt trans. possible cost $1200-$1400

-tow the car to a local transmission shop, have them remove transmission, open it up and inspect & put back together, IF nothing's destroyed inside. And finally re-install bsck to the engine. quoted price is $1000 if the transmissions okay to re-use.

I honestly really like the idea of the shop, but I'm really worried about the transmission I have, for alot of reasons. I paid good money to already have it stage 2 so I'm pretty upset. I kind of actually feel more comfortable getting a new trans but just wanting opinions of others as mentioned..

 

[zack13277]

I noticed more resistance in neutral, sure enough - I look and the timing is trying to move!

^What do you mean, that you can't shift into any gears??? What do you mean the timing is trying to move???WTF

IF you are saying that you can't get into any gears, my mechanic friend used to rebuild these transmissions all the time and sometimes the new synchros get stuck and what you do is: Rev the engine to about 3-4k leave it in neutral and drop the clutch. Only do this about 3 times otherwise it could wreck the trans. It will make a big bang sound, but then it loosens everything up and will drive like normal. Be carefull though.

 

[1Gina2G]

^What do you mean, that you can't shift into any gears??? What do you mean the timing is trying to move???WTF

IF you are saying that you can't get into any gears, my mechanic friend used to rebuild these transmissions all the time and sometimes the new synchros get stuck and what you do is: Rev the engine to about 3-4k leave it in neutral and drop the clutch. Only do this about 3 times otherwise it could wreck the trans. It will make a big bang sound, but then it loosens everything up and will drive like normal. Be carefull though.

Well I havent attempted to 'really' put the car under a load with the gears, don't even want to move it at all with this issue, worried about starting the engine also just becuase the car moves forward an inch when you turn the key for the starter. Seems like alignment, but slightly.

I forgot to mention that I can move into gears 1,2,3,4, smoothly, gear five feels rough like it's NOT engaging, and reverse feels like its either in or half in..somethings seriously not aligned.

 

[Calan]

So... are you saying that the car rolls forward when you try to start it with the clutch pushed in, even if it's in neutral?

 

[1Gina2G]

I haven't tried to turn the starter with the clutch pressed in, since the clutch seems to be fine since it will fully disengage when pressed in.

I have the clutch safety switch unistalled, so I've always kept the car in neutral to start. This transmissions been on the car for about a year now, known to move freely perfectly fine before, moved it around several places in the yard & driveway, in & out of the garage multiple times, timings never moved in neutral.
For 1 day, I actualy engaged it in first with the engine on just to move it around the house for a second.

when you turn the starter, the car simply moves forward an inch or so, you can barely feel it but it was never like that. Its alot harder of a movement COMPARED to bumping the starter in first gear since I've done that once.

the car doesnt continue to move forward after that intial bump, it'll keep spinning but then the car moves back that inch when you stop.

 

[Calan]

Something tells me I'm still not grasping everything here.

If you put the car in neutral, push the clutch to the floor, and try to start it... does it move?

 

[1Gina2G]

No it will not, clutch in, in neutral, car will not move with the starter.

 

[Mischif]

I had the same problem before thats why im so sure its something wrong with the transmission. Im not sure if my transfer case locked up and took out my tranny or it was the tranny that failed, but i wound up with a crack in the transmission body and lost all my fluid. I couldn't even push the car with it in neutral, it would roll about an inch then have tons of resistance. If i held the clutch down tho the car would roll no problem. It would barely even start up in nuetral, it would bog down so bad and you could tell the engine was struggling to turn. But if i had the clutch in it started up fine and idled right...until i let the clutch out then it just wanted to die. I couldn't drive it more than a few feet in gear before you felt everything lock up and it just stopped moving.

If you get it towed make sure you use a flatbad, don't tow it on the ground as that could cause even more damage.

 

[BogusSVO]

Gina, In your other thread, you said you heard a pop/bang/noise, You started the car and were going to move a few feet and pull it in the shop.

It dose sound like something came loose/broke insude the trans. (shifter fork?) and is jamming up in the cluster gear set.

Bad luck on dogbox shutting down.

But now, your talking taking it to a local shop, why not talk to Shep or Jack, or Twicks?
They are all know modified trans for DSMs.

Hopefully it can be cracked open, and find a fairly simple issue that needs fixed.

 

[95talongirl]

Gina, In your other thread, you said you heard a pop/bang/noise, You started the car and were going to move a few feet and pull it in the shop.

It dose sound like something came loose/broke insude the trans. (shifter fork?) and is jamming up in the cluster gear set.

Bad luck on dogbox shutting down.

But now, your talking taking it to a local shop, why not talk to Shep or Jack, or Twicks?
They are all know modified trans for DSMs.

Hopefully it can be cracked open, and find a fairly simple issue that needs fixed.

I agree... Sounds like something let go in the trans and thus it won't move. You probably will find that some teeth on the gears chewed up. Sometimes the pieces of the gears will get caught and bind up... Then the car won't move. Try to maybe put in in reverse to see if you can unbind it?

 

[1Gina2G]

Gina, In your other thread, you said you heard a pop/bang/noise, You started the car and were going to move a few feet and pull it in the shop.

It dose sound like something came loose/broke insude the trans. (shifter fork?) and is jamming up in the cluster gear set.

Bad luck on dogbox shutting down.

But now, your talking taking it to a local shop, why not talk to Shep or Jack, or Twicks?
They are all know modified trans for DSMs.

Hopefully it can be cracked open, and find a fairly simple issue that needs fixed.

I dont remember the pop / bang your talking about, sounds unrelated.

I simply took the car out of the garage (pushed it) for a start up, noticed.the problem with the starter, so I wanted to get it back in the garage.

the local shop offers a full service for removing / examinig and rebuild along with installation. by rebuild i simply mean put back together with the same insides saying they are okay to use.

everywhere else is going to want a grand for a stage 1 rebuild...

 

[BogusSVO]

Sorry about the pop comment, I thought you had said that in one of the other threads.

Have to talked to Shep, Jack or Twicks? Tell them the issue, who built it last and how long ago it was.

The local shop quoted you $1000 if all is ok, now what if it is not? How much are they going to charge to fix it?

Say the gear cluster is locked up, broken syncro, broken shift fork, or a simple roll pin sheared causing the jam up, this local shop will want to grab a stock set up and drop it in, so your good parts end up in the scrap pile.

You have paid good money to get an upgrade done to the trans, will the local shop even know whats going on? or just charge you more and put you back to stock?

Money says something inside the trans is broken, or loose jamming up the cluster gear set. Locking it up causing it to be "In gear"

From what you have discribed, its the only thing that fits.

Now for some reason, you do not want to speak to one of the DSM expert transmission builders found on the board.

You may not even need a rebuild, but a replacement of a simple part.

To me, it would be trashing a ported head w/up graded springs and valves, beacuse when it was built, the machinist flubbed the seal install........

 

[1Gina2G]

Alright well I spoke with someone at sheptrans, explained the situation as best as I could. He said all he could think of was oil drag, he asked if I had tried to move the car in gear purposley, and drive it down the road, I said no because I didnt want to take a chance with anything.

He said if it moves everythings probably still aligned right, and that attempting to drive it is the only way to check things out with everything installed in the car.

At the same time, I remembered & mentioned that I put 'some' lucas oil stabilzer in first, to get a film of it at the bottom, to see what the deal was with this gear oil leak I was going through recently. Most of it is regular 80W90 gear oil.

he said that the 80w90 is really about as thick as you want to have it in the trans already, and that if the oils to thick it can make things stick together.

so I drained everything, put some 75W90 in the trans and pulled the MPI relay to get everything turning and primed. I was shocked to hear that the stater was having a HARDER time turning, sounding like it was dieing, or that the battery was also low! battery was disconnected all night, rechecked and still at 11.86 volts, a tad low, but it can ususally move the starter just fine with that. Sure enough, sounded the same with the jumper cables attached. So I got the car started, disconnected the cables and moved the car forward, went smoothly! I checked the timing right after that in neutral, and it stays disengaged in neutral as it should!

got the car back in the garage with no problems now, just hoping this doesnt come back for some reason, I wonder if it really was the oil? Or just the fact the clutch engaged? both? no telling. So I wouldn't mark this as resolved just yet, since its going to be 2 days till its fully ready for the on the road test.

I'll post back when something comes up, or if ends up staying fixed.

 

[pauleyman]

Have you ever driven the car up to this point? It kind of reads like you never have.

 

[1Gina2G]

Have you ever driven the car up to this point? It kind of reads like you never have.

never have really. never drove on the previous transmission either, car was bought junked, came a long way since 2 yeaars ago.

I've simply just pushed the car in neutral since the rebuild & install, but 1 time I actually did engage in 1st gear with the engine running, moved the car around the yard.

if all checks out in 2 days (leak wise) Im going to take the car down the road for my first time, and attempt to break in the piston rings, followed by a BLT once I get back in the driveway.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I look and the timing is trying to move!

This transmissions been on the car for about a year now, known to move freely perfectly fine before, moved it around several places in the yard & driveway, in & out of the garage multiple times, timings never moved in neutral.

I checked the timing right after that in neutral, and it stays disengaged in neutral as it should!

Could you describe, in detail, what kind of action you are performing when you say "the timing is moving" or "I looked and the timing stays disengaged" and other such things?
Glad things are looking up.

 

[zack13277]

I know when you get new synchros they cn sometimes stick and just have to be broken loose then everything will be good to go.

I am also very interested in what all this "timing is trying to move" and stuff also???

Wait, do you mean the camshafts are moving when you are pushing the car?

 

[1Gina2G]

Could you describe, in detail, what kind of action you are performing when you say "the timing is moving" or "I looked and the timing stays disengaged" and other such things?
Glad things are looking up.

I thought I basically covered it in post number 1. I'll quote the part specifically

I moved the car out of the garage to do a startup, noticed first when I turn the starter over the car bumps forward the TINIEST bit, you can barely feel/notice. Nothing like the force of bumping the starter in 1st gear.

after attempting to move the car back in the garage, I noticed more resistance in neutral, sure enough - I look and the timing is trying to move! I imediatley stopped and tried messing with the shifter itself a few more times, and then I went to shifting the transmission directly at the levers the shift linkage attaches to, didn't move to neutral ANY DIFFERENT

with the clutch pressed in, the timing/ crank will be fully disengaged from the transmission, I KNOW i put the clutch & pressure plate on right! torqued correctly & evenly, threadlocker on everything down there. Nothing feels broken, just not aligned.

when I say move the car back in the garage I mean pushing it

 

[1Gina2G]

Alright everyone, it's been a cupple months since I made this thread, having 2 major transmission problems which are now both resolved!

1. transmission was acting like it was 'engaged' while still in neutral, regardless of what gear was last shifted into, and regardless of being shifted through the cables VS shifted directly at the transmission. this prevented me from physically pushing the car without moving ALL the timing, fighting the compression & spring tension

2. Not being able to engage into 5th AND Reverse gears.

1. After realizing what I posted earlier, that problem 1 would 'go away' as long as I just, 'bump' the car forward slightly in 1st gear, I would do this whenever it happend, as sometimes it would appear to be totally gone, but after a start up, or a small drive, it would be 'engaged' after shutting the car off in neutral. So this was still happening for the first cupple drives, which werent longer then 5 miles honestly.
So as I also mentioned earlier, the problem (1) could be 'fixed' as long as you engaged into first with a real load, then neutral. So I was wondering, if it was the small amount of lucas that was still in the transmission - as there is still a fair amount of oil (few onces or so) still inside the transmission after you remove the drain plug, untill/unless you start taking off the cases/peices that make up the transmission body.

2.So later I ended up making a thread on the the 5TH/Reverse gear problem, which lead to me taking off the transmission end case where the gears are located at (just 5th & reverse syncro) and I was able to engage into these gears with the case off, with the help of a friend. So that problem solved. BUT as a sidenote, related to problem 1, ALOT of oil came out when I removed the endcase, which I think was causing the gears to ocaisionally stick. So I really feel that lucas messed up my new trans, thank god its all out. This is the thread
I made for problem 2.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...not-engaging-transmission-case-questions.html

Now I've been driving the car all around town now, everything has been going great! Shifts into all gears, smoothly, and without any problems pushing the car into neutral at all! Just wanted to fill in, what's happend since, hopefully this helps someone in the future.