Engine Swap now won't turn locked up?

[tight_tsi]

My car had a bad cylinder with low compression. I found a 1992 tsi awd parts car. I pulled the motor on that car which was an automatic. Swapped everything over - mine is a manual trans - and installed it into my car. Now when I try to turn it over by hand on the crank bolt clockwise, it only turns over a little bit then locks up solid and won't let you turn it any further. I am stumped! Had the flywheel resurfaced, swapped it over to the good motor, new clutch kit including oem pilot bearing. I know the motor from the 92 was good because I drove the car off of the trailer when I pulled it home. It started and ran just fine. I didn't mess with the timing at all - left everything on that side of the motor alone. Just swapped transmissions since it was an auto and mine is a stick.

Any suggestions??? Thanks -

 

[JusMX141]

Any chance the engine is out of time? Does this only happen when the engine is bolted to the trans (did not happen prior to installing the engine into the car)?

 

[Gs Dewd]

Did you make sure all bolts are tight on the flywheel? Is there any chance water could have gotten into the engine? It the car in neutral when trying to turn it over?

 

[1991GSXAWD]

Maybe pull the spark plugs and try turning over by hand again?

 

[Snot Rocket]

What do you mean you put a new OEM pilot bearing in? The manual trans don't have pilot bearings only the auto's. Plus looking at the flywheel you turn it counter clockwise not clockwise.

 

[tight_tsi]

What do you mean you put a new OEM pilot bearing in? The manual trans don't have pilot bearings only the auto's. Plus looking at the flywheel you turn it counter clockwise not clockwise.

Throw-out bearing sorry. Right now the motor and trans is in the engine bay and I was ready to fire it up when I discovered its not turning over because it locks up. I can turn it back counterclockwise about half a turn and it locks up in that direction too - this is turning the crank pulley on the drivers side.

Did you make sure all bolts are tight on the flywheel? Is there any chance water could have gotten into the engine? It the car in neutral when trying to turn it over?

Yes flywheel bolts tight, no water in cylinders, in neutral yes. Even tried having someone hold the clutch in and turning it over by hand.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Did you take the pilot bushing off the crankshaft before you mated it to the manual transmission?

 

[1991GSXAWD]

Maybe it jumped time when you shut it off before you pulled the motor out? I know, what are the chances? It can happen.

 

[tight_tsi]

Did you take the pilot bushing off the crankshaft before you mated it to the manual transmission?

Is that a metal disc thing you are referring too or something else?

 

[JusMX141]

Maybe it jumped time when you shut it off before you pulled the motor out? I know, what are the chances? It can happen.

Happened to me with a customer car while it was sitting at my shop. It ran when we parked it in the fall, did not run when we attempted to start the car in the spring to resume work. Further inspection revealed the timing had jumped a tooth or two- enough to wreck the intake valves in two of the four cylinders while attempting to start the car.

What happened? The timing tensioner apparently failed while the car was sitting through the winter. When we started the car in the spring, there was unknowingly a ton of slack in the belt.

 

[tight_tsi]

Maybe it jumped time when you shut it off before you pulled the motor out? I know, what are the chances? It can happen.

Yea I suppose anything is possible. But this motor ran 2 weeks ago when I pulled it out. It didn't sit long.

 

[rush2252]

Just a dumb question.. but have you attempted turning it over with the key instead of by hand? I cant think of anything that hasnt been mentioned that would cause the motor to lock up. You just might be overthinking this one!

 

[tight_tsi]

Just a dumb question.. but have you attempted turning it over with the key instead of by hand? I cant think of anything that hasnt been mentioned that would cause the motor to lock up. You just might be overthinking this one!

Yes I did the very first time. It started to turn over then just quit - all power to my dash lights and everything went blank. Disconnected the battery and turned back on then all power to dash lights and stuff ok. That's how I found out that it is getting locked up. I'm really stumped by this one. Thought about maybe dropping the oil pan for inspection?? Not sure if that would be worth the work or not.

So...to try to rule out the trans would it be possible to loosen all the bellhousing bolts and slide the trans back an inch or so to see if the motor will turn then? Or do I pretty much have to remove it completely?

 

[rush2252]

Yes I did the very first time. It started to turn over then just quit - all power to my dash lights and everything went blank. Disconnected the battery and turned back on then all power to dash lights and stuff ok. That's how I found out that it is getting locked up. I'm really stumped by this one. Thought about maybe dropping the oil pan for inspection?? Not sure if that would be worth the work or not.

So...to try to rule out the trans would it be possible to loosen all the bellhousing bolts and slide the trans back an inch or so to see if the motor will turn then? Or do I pretty much have to remove it completely?

Not sure how the transmission could be locking up the motor unless the tranny was damaged internally. My dsm will start and pull the weight of the car in 1st gear. I double checked this a few minutes ago. I would check the timing belt etc. Its possible that something isnt kosher there.

Also, have you tried removing the spark plugs to see if this helps? You never replid to that when asked earlier. AND removing the tranny IMO is a PITA either way you slice it. And trying to line it back up with the motor still in the car is never fun either.

EDIT: Try removing the starter, the dust shield that mounts between the tranny and motor might have bent or be pinched between the flywheel and the starter bendix? Im just throwing out ideas so you can go at this thing like a man on a mission and come out victorious!

 

[tight_tsi]

^^^^thanks for the ideas!!! I haven't tried the spark plugs yet - was going to last night but didn't get a chance. I will probably try those couple of things and get back on here and give you the results.

Here is something that I did discover last night - not sure if it will help or not but when I manually turn the crank the half-turn that it will go in either direction, if the transmission is in neutral you can manually turn the crank over and the rear driveshaft doesn't move. However, if you put it in any gear, even with the clutch all the way to the floor, when you turn the crank over in either direction, the rear driveshaft also turns. Is this supposed to happen??? I figured with the clutch all the way the rear driveshaft shouldn't move correct??? Does this help in solving my issue???

 

[rush2252]

^^^^thanks for the ideas!!! I haven't tried the spark plugs yet - was going to last night but didn't get a chance. I will probably try those couple of things and get back on here and give you the results.

Here is something that I did discover last night - not sure if it will help or not but when I manually turn the crank the half-turn that it will go in either direction, if the transmission is in neutral you can manually turn the crank over and the rear driveshaft doesn't move. However, if you put it in any gear, even with the clutch all the way to the floor, when you turn the crank over in either direction, the rear driveshaft also turns. Is this supposed to happen??? I figured with the clutch all the way the rear driveshaft shouldn't move correct??? Does this help in solving my issue???

Yes, remember the steel piece that fits in the center of the crank end? Whenever you go from auto to manual you remove that and use the throw out bearing. Its technical name is a pilot bushing it isnt used on the manuals. I didnt go back and read if you said you removed it or not but...

If the driveshaft is actually moving as if its engaged, with the clutch pedal to the floor then most likely you forgot to remove the pilot bushing.

My next question is this.. You would have to have removed the manual flywheel from your original motor and swapped it with the flexplate from the auto motor? You DID do this correct? If so then the pilot bushing should have went bye bye with the flex plate. hmmm

Make sure you have the flywheel from the original motor (shiny surface for clutch to bite AND heavier) on the motor with the manual tranny, and make sure the pilot bushing (sits inside the center of the flexplate/flywheel is OUT.

EDIT AGAIN: Just thinking, make sure the flywheel isnt mounted backwards either?? Hey its possible.. Highly unlikely but possible.

 

[tight_tsi]

Yes, remember the steel piece that fits in the center of the crank end? Whenever you go from auto to manual you remove that and use the throw out bearing. Its technical name is a pilot bushing it isnt used on the manuals. I didnt go back and read if you said you removed it or not but...

If the driveshaft is actually moving as if its engaged, with the clutch pedal to the floor then most likely you forgot to remove the pilot bushing.

My next question is this.. You would have to have removed the manual flywheel from your original motor and swapped it with the flexplate from the auto motor? You DID do this correct? If so then the pilot bushing should have went bye bye with the flex plate. hmmm

Make sure you have the flywheel from the original motor (shiny surface for clutch to bite AND heavier) on the motor with the manual tranny, and make sure the pilot bushing (sits inside the center of the flexplate/flywheel is OUT.

EDIT AGAIN: Just thinking, make sure the flywheel isnt mounted backwards either?? Hey its possible.. Highly unlikely but possible.

Yes - the steel bushing and flex plate have been removed when swapped over to the manual trans. They are currently sitting on the torque convertor on my garage floor - so I know I left them out of the equation. I'm thinking it's the wrong pressure plate in the clutch assembly that I installed??? I'm thinking once I get the trans out - I will install the old pressure plate onto the new clutch disc - or at least see if there is a difference in thickness in the 2 pressure plates when apart. As cheap as this clutch was - it wouldn't surprise me. Just needed something to get by with for now. Here are a few pics I took -

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[rush2252]

Or im thinking that clutch is possibly for the 2g. I believe they are slightly larger diameter.. 10" as opposed to 9"?? or AWD as opposed to FWD. I vaguely remember our parts computer asking alot of questions when looking up a clutch for a guy with a 1g.
THAT would make a difference.

Because the pressure plate being a larger diameter would mean ZERO clearance in the bell housing. THAT is most likely the problem and THAT would be why the motor wont turn because the pressure plate is hitting the bell housing after its installed.

WOW. I guess I completely overlooked "instaleld new clutch kit" I Really hope this fixes your issue.

EDIT: That extra lip covering the fingers looks oddly placed. Im wondering if it is the correct year clutch, just poorly designed and it is too deep, either way that is damn stupid of them to sell you something that is "oem style" and ends up causing this much of a headache. Lesser men would have thrown in the towel!

 

[tight_tsi]

^^^^^! Thanks but I just want to drive my car again!!!!!

So I started tearing into it last night. Started removing all the top stuff to get to the trans, removed the starter motor, loosened all the bolts on the bellhousing, and when I removed the transfer case the motor now spins over freely!! So I was initially thinking a problem with the transfer case but it ends up being the loosened bolts to the bellhousing - with just that little bit of clearance it spins over freely. So I removed the cross-members underneath and called it a night. Just need to pull out the trans the rest of the way.

Here is hopefully my final question - with this aftermarket clutch kit confirmed as being the problem - can I just install my old pressure plate but retain the new clutch material disc??? Or should I scrap the whole thing and find another option??? The matieral disc matches perfectly in diameter to the flywheel if I remember correctly. I'm thinking it's just the pressure plate but I want to compare them side to side when I get it all out and apart.

 

[rush2252]

^^^^^! Thanks but I just want to drive my car again!!!!!

So I started tearing into it last night. Started removing all the top stuff to get to the trans, removed the starter motor, loosened all the bolts on the bellhousing, and when I removed the transfer case the motor now spins over freely!! So I was initially thinking a problem with the transfer case but it ends up being the loosened bolts to the bellhousing - with just that little bit of clearance it spins over freely. So I removed the cross-members underneath and called it a night. Just need to pull out the trans the rest of the way.

Here is hopefully my final question - with this aftermarket clutch kit confirmed as being the problem - can I just install my old pressure plate but retain the new clutch material disc??? Or should I scrap the whole thing and find another option??? The matieral disc matches perfectly in diameter to the flywheel if I remember correctly. I'm thinking it's just the pressure plate but I want to compare them side to side when I get it all out and apart.

Yes, you should be able to just run a new clutch disc. Just make sure the fingers are in good shape! Some people might not recommend it but they used to remanufacture clutch discs and people use them all the time.

Also, you might want to read up on having the flywheel resurfaced if its in bad shape. The new clutch disc should not give you any problems just make sure you allow a minor break in time if you dont get the flywheel resurfaced before going out and really driving the car hard.

 

[95weclipse]

I don't know how true this or my facts on this but I remember reading some where that the automatic blocks are different some out and the manual ones are to. Know i think you have to buy some kind of spacer or something i believe so when you took the bolts loose it gave it enough room to turn thus the reason for the spacer like I said I am not sure on it exactly that might be the problem OR like rush said was that the pressure plate does not look right at all here's the clutch you should have received may be the pressure plate is causing some kind of binding in side the trans........does the clutch feel weird at all?

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=200559860794

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I don't know how true this or my facts on this but I remember reading some where that the automatic blocks are different some out and the manual ones are to. Know i think you have to buy some kind of spacer or something i believe so when you took the bolts loose it gave it enough room to turn thus the reason for the spacer like I said I am not sure on it exactly that might be the problem OR like rush said was that the pressure plate does not look right at all here's the clutch you should have received may be the pressure plate is causing some kind of binding in side the trans........does the clutch feel weird at all?

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=200559860794

That's not right, you don't need a spacer, and the blocks are the same, I know this first hand.

OP, I would check the clutch fork for marks caused by rubbing this part of the pressure plate:

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Other than that lip, the pressure plate looks normal to me.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, are you absolutely sure you removed that bushing? It's about 3"-4" diameter, and fits right onto the back of the crank.

 

[tight_tsi]

I plan on getting it all apart tomorrow right away. I will follow up with my findings for sure.

rush2252 - I did have the flywheel resurfaced already.

Colt4G63 - Unless there is more than 1 metal spacer on the automatics, I have one that is confirmed, removed and currently loose and laying on the torque convertor from the auto trans on my garage floor. I'll probably take off the flywheel anyways pending my findings just to double check.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I plan on getting it all apart tomorrow right away. I will follow up with my findings for sure.

rush2252 - I did have the flywheel resurfaced already.

Colt4G63 - Unless there is more than 1 metal spacer on the automatics, I have one that is confirmed, removed and currently loose and laying on the torque convertor from the auto trans on my garage floor. I'll probably take off the flywheel anyways pending my findings just to double check.

Well there is also a metal ring that goes on over the flexplate, so I hope you aren't mistaking that for the spacer we mentioned. The reason I stress this is because it looks like part of the crank at first glance. When I got my engine all put together I almost crapped myself thinking that my crank was for an auto only. It wasn't until I looked extra close that I noticed the piece comes off. It didn't come off easily either.

If you snap a picture of the bushing you removed, we could put that theory to rest.

 

[tight_tsi]

Ok got it all apart. I found the rub marks on the outside edge of the pressure plate coming into contact with one single spot on the inside of the transmission which can all be seen in the pics below. I didn't find any spacers to remove. I'm thinking its the pressure plate that is the cause of my nightmare??? I do have a comparison pic below of the 2 plates. It almost looks like the old plate is recessed a bit different to be lower on that edge that is rubbing on the new plate?? Maybe someone can see something that I'm missing?? Please let me know what you think - thanks!!

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Old spacers from auto trans:

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