wont start w/o jumper wire on relay

[spic21]

i have a 90 talon tsi. i been trying to get it back in shape so i replaced some parts and drained old gas to start. it will start all day long if i jump top two contact of starter relay. if not i get a clicking sound from under hood sound like near the starter. i replaced the relay but same thing. what the hell. please help ive been working on it for a few days now and im going crazy. it worked good for few min when i first turned it over but now nothing but clicking w/o that dang jumper wire.

 

[BLINKY619]

fuse

 

[spic21]

fuse

i have change almost all off them even if they didnt need to be. its weird. why can i jump relay and start?

 

[dsm8883]

Have you checked anything? inputs and outputs on the relay? what is it missing? check all the wires on the relay and see which one is missing---ground,battery voltage,signal wire and so.

 

[spic21]

Have you checked anything? inputs and outputs on the relay? what is it missing? check all the wires on the relay and see which one is missing---ground,battery voltage,signal wire and so.

yep ive checked them all. two contacts have 12 volt when i turn key it start. other two tested ok too. i even have a diagram of the elec system.

oh yea and i was using ground from relay to test voltage so ground is good to. i just cant understand why i can jump the dang relay and it work.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

i have change almost all off them even if they didnt need to be. its weird. why can i jump relay and start?

Did you change the big black 80 amp that's bolted in the corner of the fuse box? That's the alt fuse and if it's blown you will get similar results.

 

[steve]

Please be more specific about exactly which pins your shorting to make it work. Use the notation from your manual page for the device and pins.

For example shorting C-35X pins 3 and 4 bypasses the starter relay.

 

[spic21]

just pull alt fuse it was blown. off to part store. let yall now what happens

it is 3 and 4

 

[steve]

The Starter Relay is a normally closed type that opens when it's activated breaking the connection between the ignition switch and the starter.

Depending on if the car has a original theft alarm or some aftermarket alarm or nothing is going to decide how to debug the problem. 1990 cars has slightly different wiring for the Clutch Safety Switch than the later cars. I'll try and scan the diagram tonight out of my 90 FSM.

The fact that you have to bypass the relay would indicate something is trying to disable the starter.

 

[spic21]

thats what i was thinking. my pic is from 91 so maybe thats why i cant find problem

got to be theft system. now i cant get it to start w jumper it just turns over. i also replace that alt fuse.

it doesnt have an after market alarm but i think it does have stock. and for some reason when im jumping the relay i dont have to use clutch. might be that way with relay but i dont know because its not working.

 

[spydergotboost]

id have to say maybe the neutral safety switch is shot. try bypassing that and try it.

 

[spic21]

id have to say maybe the neutral safety switch is shot. try bypassing that and try it.

think thats only automatics right?

 

[steve]

and for some reason when im jumping the relay i dont have to use clutch. might be that way with relay but i dont know because its not working.

Jumping those pins disables the normal function of the starter relay that's why you don't have to push in the clutch.

I'm looking at the 90 FSM and I guess the memory is starting to get fuzzy, the circuit is the same but they don't show any factory theft alarm. Maybe it's the cruise switch that reversed polarity between the 90 and 91+ cars.

Anyway, if you look at the basic circuit the ignition switch is the source of the power for the starter solenoid. Inbetween the two is the starter relay, it's a normally closed type so when it's not activated there is a closed circuit between pins 3 and 4. You'll also see that the input from the ignition also goes to the relay coil and from there to the clutch safety switch. The CSS is also a normally closed type so with the clutch out the CSS is closed making the coil of the starter relay connected to ground. This causes current to flow through the relay coil and activates the starter relay, opening the connection between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid keeping the starter from working.
When you push the clutch in it open the connection to ground at the CSS and the relay doesn't activate. Disconnecting the CSS serves the same function as jumpering 3 and 4 if the starter relay is good.

Since the problem now is the car isn't starting rather than the starter is working you need to be looking elsewhere.

Does the CEL turn on of five seconds when you first turn the ignition on?
Does the boost gauge move to zero when you turn the ignition on?

Why did you have to replace the alternator fuse?

 

[spic21]

Jumping those pins disables the normal function of the starter relay that's why you don't have to push in the clutch.

I'm looking at the 90 FSM and I guess the memory is starting to get fuzzy, the circuit is the same but they don't show any factory theft alarm. Maybe it's the cruise switch that reversed polarity between the 90 and 91+ cars.

Anyway, if you look at the basic circuit the ignition switch is the source of the power for the starter solenoid. Inbetween the two is the starter relay, it's a normally closed type so when it's not activated there is a closed circuit between pins 3 and 4. You'll also see that the input from the ignition also goes to the relay coil and from there to the clutch safety switch. The CSS is also a normally closed type so with the clutch out the CSS is closed making the coil of the starter relay connected to ground. This causes current to flow through the relay coil and activates the starter relay, opening the connection between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid keeping the starter from working.
When you push the clutch in it open the connection to ground at the CSS and the relay doesn't activate. Disconnecting the CSS serves the same function as jumpering 3 and 4 if the starter relay is good.

Since the problem now is the car isn't starting rather than the starter is working you need to be looking elsewhere.

Does the CEL turn on of five seconds when you first turn the ignition on?
Does the boost gauge move to zero when you turn the ignition on?

Why did you have to replace the alternator fuse?

cel does comes on and go off.
and the boost gauge also move to 0

i think alt fuse was my fault when i pulled on it the fuse broke think it was just old.

does the theft alarm control if i get spark or not because im not getting any spark at plugs anymore either.

i unpluged the clutch switch and had same problem.

really wondering about theft alarm causing a problem. on my fuse box in car it says the anti theft antivol relay is there at top. ive test contact there and there good. but i cant hear or feel it clicking. my book shows an anti thef starter relay for it under consol near shifter. i found it and im getting no power to it. this is relay c-25 on the pic i posted

i have tested css and it is also working properly

 

[spic21]

ok ive tested that relay plug c-25 on pic. its not gettin power to it. the ground is good. does this mean my key switch reminder is not working? maybe key switch? it dings when key is left in.

im really suck here. ive test all switches, relays and fuses. anyone of any ideas im really open to try anything. if not this f***in car get a match and can of gas

 

[spic21]

anyone? im really suck here. open to any ideas

 

[debbie]

i have a 90 talon tsi. i been trying to get it back in shape so i replaced some parts and drained old gas to start. it will start all day long if i jump top two contact of starter relay. if not i get a clicking sound from under hood sound like near the starter. i replaced the relay but same thing. what the hell. please help ive been working on it for a few days now and im going crazy. it worked good for few min when i first turned it over but now nothing but clicking w/o that dang jumper wire.

Hey just trying to help but need to know a few things.

Was the car working before you put new parts on?

What new parts did you replace?

Are you unlocking your doors manually or with the key fob?

I would try both and see what happens

 

[spic21]

Hey just trying to help but need to know a few things.

Was the car working before you put new parts on?

What new parts did you replace?

Are you unlocking your doors manually or with the key fob?

I would try both and see what happens

sorry ill start from begening. i completely rebuilt motor 4 or 5 years ago. and broke the oil filter bracket when putting in the new oil pressure sending unit. it was the last straw at the time and i had enough of the car. so it sat there. about 2 weeks ago i replaced the oil filter housing. put it all of the car back together. drain gas cleaned tank. i want to see if the car would turn over so i left fuel disconnected and tried it. it work fine turnned rite over but stupid me i didnt tighten crank pulley bolts so i though the belt. after that it just made a clicking sound like when ## batt is dead. so i put charger on batt for nite and put belt back on. tighting bolts this time. next day when i tried it this is what i got. same clickin sound. ive tried key in door i turn to unlock for five secs because i read it somewhere on here. it unlocks both doors. i dont have a key fob and never have.

if u need more please ask. anything to help.

well glad u asked me what happened because it made me think that the belt may have cut a wire or something so i went to check and found a sensor unplugged that was hooked to coil. so not it runs again but only when i jump that starter relay. so same problem but at least it runs again

not that i want to do this because id much rather have to the right way. but what would happen if i left starter relay jumped permanently. any down sides to this?

 

[steve]

There is no downside to bypassing the starter relay.

None of the 1G had factory key fobs for the theft alarm. There is a description of how the TA works in the 1G Technical Manual. I haven't had time to look at the 90 FSM to get the diagrams and compare to the 91+ FSM but it looks like the TA only disables the starter along with flashing the horn and lights.

There were three things you grounded in the picture IIRC. The tach noise filter, another noise condenser, and some ground connector that I think should have gone to the firewall.

There are pictures on where the tach noise filter attaches to the intake manifold support. Search around and you'll find them. Using my ID in the search will help limit the results.

 

[spic21]

There is no downside to bypassing the starter relay.

None of the 1G had factory key fobs for the theft alarm. There is a description of how the TA works in the 1G Technical Manual. I haven't had time to look at the 90 FSM to get the diagrams and compare to the 91+ FSM but it looks like the TA only disables the starter along with flashing the horn and lights.

There were three things you grounded in the picture IIRC. The tach noise filter, another noise condenser, and some ground connector that I think should have gone to the firewall.

There are pictures on where the tach noise filter attaches to the intake manifold support. Search around and you'll find them. Using my ID in the search will help limit the results.

im sorry i dont know the abrevations what is IIRC. are u saying i need to ground the tach noise filter and noise condenser. im a little confused.

 

[steve]

Try google.

 

[spic21]

yea did that and got Interactive Illinois Report Card. i know yall want people to search everything and i do! but im working with dail up connection here. and wouldnt it be just as easy to write out what it means as to type try google. im not trying to be rude just asking for a little help man. i have been on many forum and understand that alot of people just get on here and ask same question over and over. but doesnt that make it easier to find next time someone searches it. again not tryin to be rude and i really do thank u for the help u have giving me. and when i search it on this site i just get they dang aber IIRC witch doesnt help.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Try google.

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Impedance Imaging Research Center (Korea)
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IVF & Infertilty Research Centre (Calcutta, India)



Oh IIRC, like If I Remember Correctly.

 

[steve]

Oh IIRC, like If I Remember Correctly.

Close enough. If I recall correctly was what I was thinking at the time.

I use lots terms and references that I expect people to look up if they don't know what they are, before they ask me. Why? Because they might find a couple more things in the process and it shows how motivated they are.

 

[ntdsmr87]

well i know if the alternator is pulling current the starter will stall probably cause ## clicking sound check the alternator relay thats probaly it......