Front camber needed?

[Aproductions]

so I'm finally dropping the tank a little bit. I'm ordering the Tokico non-adjustable spring/strut kit and i found new bump stops and the STM rear camber kit.

My question is, Do i need the Front Camber Kit for a 1.5 inch drop. ( I'm fwd GST)

Thanks.

 

[gofer]

so I'm finally dropping the tank a little bit. I'm ordering the Tokico non-adjustable spring/strut kit and i found new bump stops and the STM rear camber kit.

My question is, Do i need the Front Camber Kit for a 1.5 inch drop. ( I'm fwd GST)

Thanks.

The alignment shop couldn't completely align my front wheels when I had my car lowered 1.6" from the Eibach Sportline kit. So with my setup I absolutely had to run a front and rear camber kit...

 

[Aproductions]

how much was it off?

 

[gofer]

how much was it off?

The amount was enough to cause the tires to wear unevenly wish was enough for me to get a front camber kit. I don't know how to read alignment paperwork but I still have the numbers if you really want them? There at my house so you'll have to wait until I get home from work.

 

[Aproductions]

its ok, but can you go on extremepsi.com and tell me which ingalls kit to get?


(+1.5* to +3*)

or

(-1.5* to +1.5*)

 

[snowborder714]

I think the best way to answer that question is to install everything, take a ride to your alignment shop, and get a printout of what your current stance is. Then decide on what camber you want to have in the front and go from there. A short ride won't hurt that much, and would be much better than guessing.

 

[gofer]

(+1.5* to +3*)

or

(-1.5* to +1.5*)

This is the Ingalls kit I run...
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - Ingalls Front Camber Adjuster (-1.5° to +1.5°): Mitsubishi Eclipse 95-99

 

[Aproductions]

yeah but Snowboarder, won't I have to pay for the alignment twice?

and Gofer, did you get your camber in the front back to 0 on both sides with the kit you just showed?

Thanks guys.

 

[snowborder714]

You don't want to have 0 camber. You want to have 0 toe, but camber should be something other than 0.

Some places will give you a free alignment reading, but not adjust anything. Just put your car on the rack and give you a print out. I believe NTB does this if you have one of them around. Just call around, say you're just looking for a reading so you can get the proper parts to make the car be able to get aligned to spec.

I'll post up a spec sheet once photobucket decides to load for me.

 

[gofer]

yeah but Snowboarder, won't I have to pay for the alignment twice?

and Gofer, did you get your camber in the front back to 0 on both sides with the kit you just showed?

Thanks guys.

Brian has a good point because I didn't do that, I just bought the kit and got lucky. You wouldn't necessarily have to pay for an alignment twice, for instance Firestone does a lifetime alignment deal for $150. Since the streets of SD suck I get an alignment once a month, after the first two alignments it pays for itself.

Yes after installing that camber kit the shop was able to get everything straightened up again.

 

[Calan]

Firestone does a lifetime alignment deal for $150.

And all of the ones around here will $%#@ you on every one of them for life, especially if you have a part on the suspension that isn't in their computer, or if you ask for a specific camber angle, etc. In other words...if you know what you are talking about. They HATE people like that.

I got so frustrated with alignment shops that now I just do my own oldschool alignment in the garage with lasers, string, jackstands, and a digital angle finder. The last time I checked it on a machine (and finally lost patience with Fireboned), it was closer to perfect than they have ever bothered to get it. It's a PITA, but at least I don't have to deal with them.

 

[snowborder714]

In other words...if you know what you are talking about. They HATE people like that.

And that's exactly why I got out of my lifetime alignment after my 2nd trip in a month (luckily with a full refund).

When I signed up I went in with my number one requirement being that they set my car to my specs, not the computers. The guy said that wouldn't be an issue. Then the manager and I had a quarrel about me being in the shop, and then told me they only set to the computer's specs. Bye bye.

 

[Calan]

When I signed up I went in with my number one requirement being that they set my car to my specs, not the computers. The guy said that wouldn't be an issue. Then the manager and I had a quarrel about me being in the shop, and then told me they only set to the computer's specs. Bye bye.

EXACTLY what happened to me. And for icing on the cake, the idiot doing the last alignment chipped my brand new rims as I watched him from a distance trying to HAMMER ON the alignment plates, rather than turning the knob to open them another 1/4". By the time I got to him it was too late, and since the manager was out and the guy couldn't speak English... let's just say they never paid for the rim and it would have cost me more in the long run to get them to.

I can't stand those bastards.

Sorry...flame off.

 

[Aproductions]

wow good stories haha. but what am i looking to get my camber at, like what is considered good if you don't want it at 0 ?

so toe set at 0 all around and what degree for camber? thanks.

 

[Calan]

wow good stories haha. but what am i looking to get my camber at, like what is considered good if you don't want it at 0 ?

so toe set at 0 all around and what degree for camber? thanks.

It totally depends on your suspension setup and how you drive the car. The whole point of adding negative camber is so that you end up with a flatter contact patch as the car "rolls over" into a turn and weight transfers to the outer wheel. How much camber you need depends on how stiff the suspension is and how hard and often you normally take these turns.

For normal everyday driving, a good compromise for handling and tire wear is around -1.5* on the fronts, and maybe -.5* to -1* on the back. I always shoot for 0 toe all the way around. This is just my opinion, and on my own car of course...everyone has their own values they prefer.

Just an FYI - Toe in or toe out contributes much more to tire wear than camber does.

*******************

EDIT:

Figured I'd toss this out just for fun...

From a tuning standpoint, a very general rule is that adding more negative camber at one end of the car will add more tire grip on that end...to a point. So for example, if you wanted to get the back end to come around a bit easier when entering corners, you may go with less negative camber in the back and/or more in the front. If the car is snap happy in the back and wants to come around too easily (not likely on most DSMs , you may want to add more negative camber to the back and take some out the front.

Notice I'm always talking about adding and removing negative camber; you never want positive camber (tires pointed out at the top), except in asymetrical setups such as those on cars running circle tracks...think NASCAR here. If the car is always turning left, you'd probably have negative on the right but positive on the left (depending on the amount of banking in the track) so that the tire gip is always optimized for the left turns.

In the real world there's a lot more to it than this of course...you get different results for each car based on the suspension stiffness, FWD vs. AWD vs. RWD, vehicle weight, CG, etc. But you get the idea.

If you really wanted to get precise with it and do some track days or autocrossing, the best way to verify your camber settings is by measuring the tire temperatures at the outside, middle, and inside of each tire. But that's a whole other topic and gets pretty deep, pretty quick.

 

[MJBean420]

get the upper adjustable ball joints. they are the best bang for the buck. You will probably need to get larger bump stops to compensate for the increase height of the ball joint. but they worked great on my car.

 

[Aproductions]

where did you get your bumpstops?!?!?

 

[snowborder714]

Here's the sheet from my 2nd NTB trip. You can see the "stock" specs in the center that they try and set each car to. I don't agree with most of them, so I started doing my own alignments as Craig mentioned above.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

I hate shops like the ones you guys describe. We do lifetime alignments and custom specs for our customers. We just put adjustable rear control arms on an old guys mini so we could stand the rears up because mini specs have crazy negative camber.

To the OP call around and find a shop that will do a free alignment check. Be honest with them and tell them you need to find the specs out so you can buy the right camber kits. They might try to sell you a kit there. Shops love alignments we make 100% profit on them.

Also to everyone else in the thread when you guys are looking for a shop look around in the parking lot and see what they drive. My shop for example has 1 STi, 2 WRX's and 2 turbo hondas that are pretty nice and of course my TSI. Look for a shop that does nice work on their own stuff and you should have good luck with them.

 

[snowborder714]

What kind of shop do you work at Josh? I know there's a show around me that'll do custom specs, but also wants to charge me over $100 for an alignment.

 

[Calan]

We don't have crap for good shops around here. Just the major chains and good ole boys with 2000 sq ft private shops that won't let anyone in to "steal" their dirt track race setups.

 

[MJBean420]

where did you get your bumpstops?!?!?

Buy new ones, cut them in-half, and add the bigger half to the original bump stop to remove about 1/2 inch of travel.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

We don't have crap for good shops around here. Just the major chains and good ole boys with 2000 sq ft private shops that won't let anyone in to "steal" their dirt track race setups.

You might check for a "private" franchise for lack of better term. We are affiliated with American Car Care Centers and Tire pros. Its kind of like a buyer co-op we can pretty much do what we want.

What kind of shop do you work at Josh? I know there's a show around me that'll do custom specs, but also wants to charge me over $100 for an alignment.

It's a full service automotive repair and tire shop. We in a very affluent area and service a wide range of vehicles. We just rebuilt a X-type trans this week and a few weeks ago we did tires on a lambo. My assistant manager and I have been in this store since it opened and have built quite a reputation for great prices and even better service. I will be the first to admit that tuners and track guys are not our best (read profitable) customers as we (tuners) tend to do our own work but what is profitable is the daily drivers and the tow rigs, plus for my location thier parents and kids cars and stuff like that.
Best advice is like I told Calan try an independant store that is locally owned and build relationship with them and become a loyal customer. I have a ton of customers that I almost think of as family, I really enjoy when they come in and just visit.

 

[Calan]

try an independant store that is locally owned and build relationship with them and become a loyal customer.

We have a couple of those...but they don't know what they are doing and don't have an alignment rack. They are really good at sitting around and talking though.

I do have one guy I work with whose dad has an alignment rack at his shop. I'll probably take the car over there once I get the rear suspension back under it and get the alignment ballparked. It will cost me, and I don't know how much he'll let me get away with...but we'll see.

BTW - added some more info to #15 up there ^^^ for those who are interested.

 

[beihl304]

I am in the same boat with front camber.. I'm lowering 2" and I expect the camber to be way out of spec.. Would a few weeks of driving it without the alignment kill my brand new tires?