7 Bolt budget build questions

[poppabear]

OK So .... I spun a rod bearing a while back on a fresh OEM rebuild. Performance Clinic are the ones who did the rebuild, a $1,200 rebuild (luckily i didn't have to pay for it, I paid $200 for the engine from a guy that had no shell for it ) ANYWAYS, the build lasted 4 days. I decided I'm going to rebuilt it again from the block up including any recommended machine work.

My question is:

I have $2000 to work with. I want as much power as i can get out of this build along with a VERY RELIABLE engine. It will be a daily driver and my max HP goal is 320. With this build i want to be able to run 11 PSI (LOW) 20 - 25 PSI (HI).

I have an Evo III 16g Turbo, stock inj, stock fuel pump, no ecu/fuel/air management.

obviously i will need to upgrade fuel system, and i can get dsmlink w/ 2g ecu for 350.00 from a friend .

I know my HP goals are low enough that i wouldn't need to spend much money on upgraded internals, my question to you is what is the best path for me ?

Can someone break it into a path as in machine work, parts, est prices, recommended vendors, brands, ect ... i want to get as much info as i can and get the best reliable and power out of a $2000 build ...

I really appreciate any and all suggestions, in no way will i get involved into any bash fest, lets keep on topic.

Thanks in advance

 

[NiKKUH_BOViCE]

You can build a pretty nice motor with 2gs assuming that you find stuff on sale and save on parts that you can get used either from junkyards or partouts. However honestly, dude your first could investment should be into a 6 bolt motor. but if the 7 is all you have to work with then good luck.
try to find HKS 264/272 cams, get 2g pistons mated with 1g rods and have them machined to fit your block assuming you will get the block honed too. 350 is awesome for DSMLink. I would not suggest running 25 psi on a daily driver but 11 sounds good. Also you already got a good turbo, now get the best manifold that you can afford its not something to save on. Other than that you should pretty much know what you are doing. But still, I would not recommend investing $2000 into a 7 bolt only to later find out that you got ####ed in the ass by crankwalk. literary.

 

[poppabear]

Yea, i hear all this gripe about crank walk all the time. I have 190k on the original motor and no issue with end play. thrust bearing couldn't look any better. I do agree that there are more KNOWN issues with the 7 bolt crank walking compared to the 6 bolt.

I was thinking of getting a 6 bolt bottom end for $150 from a guy locally, not sure if i want to go that route yet.

I guess what this is all about is it doesn't really matter if 7 or 6 bolt, the build shouldn't have a different path just because it would be a 6 bolt.


So far:
HKS 264/272 cams
2g pistons mated with 1g rods
have them machined to fit the block
get the block honed
DSMLink for $350

Anyone else want to add to this ?

Thanks in advance

 

[aparker]

If he is doing a rebuild he wont have to worry about crankwalk. He would hopefully be installing the revised thrust bearing from the later 7 bolt.

 

[poppabear]

If he is doing a rebuild he wont have to worry about crankwalk. He would hopefully be installing the revised thrust bearing from the later 7 bolt.

Agreed ....

 

[joe sobo]

hey, i haven't talked to yuo in a while, but let me know if you still have those turbos'
on to your questions. if you are only looking for 320-350 out of your car, just stick with the stock rods and pistons. do bother wasting your time doing the 6 bolt rod swap. your h.p level does not warrant that.
as for machine work, we just picked up his block from the machine shop. we had it bored .020 over, decked, line bored, magnafluxed, rings were gapped,got the crank polished, and some other work done for 315.00 so it will be about 250-300.00 for your work to just freshen up and to get crank cut. go with acl bearings. don't waste the money on the race ones. (again, h.p does not warrany it)
a topline complete gasket kit is 108.00 online. timing kit is about 100.00, waterpump is 60.00. i would go with a mitsubishi h/g and some arps' wich will run you about 140.00 for a kit that has the h/g and the arps'. if the head was redone recently, and you know that for a fact, i wouldn't touch it.
i am telling you, you can do a complete stock rebuild for about 60.0 plus machine work, so you have plenty of extra money for little odds and ends
good luck with your build, and hope to hear from you soon joe
oh, i almost forgot the biggest part...... if you had that 16g on the car when it spun a bearing, you will have to take it apart and clean it out, or a rebuild if it did any damage. if not, not long after you drive your rebuilt engine, the turbo will go, cause of the contamination from the bearing failure. also if you use it on a new engine, you will be putting metal into your frech build, and wipe out the new rod/main bearings out

 

[needsy]

If he is doing a rebuild he wont have to worry about crankwalk. He would hopefully be installing the revised thrust bearing from the later 7 bolt.

Don't you need a revised block to use the revised bearings?

 

[poppabear]

Hey Joe,

Yes i still have the 16g turbo, the 14b i sold alrady, but you are welcome to take the 16g for a rebuild.

Anyways, i hear bad things about topline gaskets, i hear felpro is the way to go, i was going to get a full master rebuild kit from somewhere, i like the looks of the topline master kit but just mixed reviews ....

The head was done recently, however i am going to pay 250 for a complete head recon.

so just stock internals than is suggested for my HP goals ...

My water pump is new

How do you guys feel about having the crank turned ??
What is your thought on the topline crankshaft ?

So far:
HKS 264/272 cams
DSMLink for $350
bored .020 over
decked
line bored
magnafluxed
rings gapped
crank polished
complete head recon
arp head studs
mitsu head gasket
timing kit

 

[MidShipCivic]

, I would not recommend investing $2000 into a 7 bolt only to later find out that you got ####ed in the ass by crankwalk. literary.

Don't recommend what you know little about there is a rule list above your post window it's #3 .

7 bolt have the same oil galley of a 6 bolt and the same thrust bearings why some engines have thrust bearing failures when others don't is a variety of reasons far beyond the simplistic solution of going with an older inferior engine.

If he is doing a rebuild he wont have to worry about crankwalk. He would hopefully be installing the revised thrust bearing from the later 7 bolt.

Later 7 bolts do not have a thrust bearing they are thrust washers, if that's what you meant please ignore my comment.

hey, i haven't talked to yuo in a while, but let me know if you still have those turbos'
on to your questions. if you are only looking for 320-350 out of your car, just stick with the stock rods and pistons. do bother wasting your time doing the 6 bolt rod swap. your h.p level does not warrant that.
as for machine work, we just picked up his block from the machine shop. we had it bored .020 over, decked, line bored, magnafluxed, rings were gapped,got the crank polished, and some other work done for 315.00 so it will be about 250-300.00 for your work to just freshen up and to get crank cut. go with acl bearings. don't waste the money on the race ones. (again, h.p does not warrany it)
a topline complete gasket kit is 108.00 online. timing kit is about 100.00, waterpump is 60.00. i would go with a mitsubishi h/g and some arps' wich will run you about 140.00 for a kit that has the h/g and the arps'. if the head was redone recently, and you know that for a fact, i wouldn't touch it.
i am telling you, you can do a complete stock rebuild for about 60.0 plus machine work, so you have plenty of extra money for little odds and ends
good luck with your build, and hope to hear from you soon joe
oh, i almost forgot the biggest part...... if you had that 16g on the car when it spun a bearing, you will have to take it apart and clean it out, or a rebuild if it did any damage. if not, not long after you drive your rebuilt engine, the turbo will go, cause of the contamination from the bearing failure. also if you use it on a new engine, you will be putting metal into your frech build, and wipe out the new rod/main bearings out

You need to learn how to type if you want to post here.

Don't you need a revised block to use the revised bearings?

You need the correct block to run thrust washer, thrust bearings on the other hand have a recess on the bearing bridge with in the engine block.

How do you guys feel about having the crank turned ??
What is your thought on the topline crankshaft ?

Don't use a topline crank they can have poor machining qualities and wear the thrust surface down on the bearing leading to immediate crankwalk. Stick with an oem crank if the journals are ''rough'' have it micropolished if not applicable have the journals resized in other words ''turned''.

There was a thread on here about 2 1/2 weeks ago a member used a brand new topline crank and his engine walked in a very short amount of time. Just be sure to check the bearing surfaces where the thrust bearing bears upon if it's rippled/uneven DO NOT USE that crankshaft.

 

[poppabear]

OK MidShipCivic,

Thanks for clearing a lot of that up, I appreciate the help.

should i reuse my pistons/rods and get new rings ? or get a master kit that comes with replacements ?

if you recommend a master kit, what kit would it be ? I really don't want to spend more than $400 on the kit if i go that way ...

if i reuse my rods should i get them recon'd ?

So here is what i am thinking:

HKS 264/272 cams
DSMLink for $350
550cc Injectors
255 walbro fuel pump
acl rod/main bearings (non race) - standard size ??
bored .020 over
decked
line bored
magnafluxed
crank polished
complete head recon
arp head studs
mitsu head gasket

What else am i missing or should i consider, remember i am looking for a RELIABLE BUILD.

 

[MidShipCivic]

OK MidShipCivic,

Thanks for clearing a lot of that up, I appreciate the help.

should i reuse my pistons/rods and get new rings ? or get a master kit that comes with replacements ?

if you recommend a master kit, what kit would it be ? I really don't want to spend more than $400 on the kit if i go that way ...

if i reuse my rods should i get them recon'd ?

So here is what i am thinking:

HKS 264/272 cams
DSMLink for $350
550cc Injectors
255 walbro fuel pump
acl rod/main bearings (non race) - standard size ??
bored .020 over
decked
line bored
magnafluxed
crank polished
complete head recon
arp head studs
mitsu head gasket

What else am i missing or should i consider, remember i am looking for a RELIABLE BUILD.

I've never really used a ''complete gasket kit'' I order everything by oem part number ... Oil pump gasket/filter housing gasket/ water pump/ balance shaft bearings/ stubby shaft (if you don't have one already)/ thermostat housing gasket



If so there isn't a need to replace a relatively new piston/ring on your engine however the connecting rod that suffered the spun bearing you should not reuse it's most likely heated up and distorted the same goes for that crankshaft.

If you suffered a spun bearing I'm pretty sure the individuals who did the rebuild did not ''stretch'' those connecting rod bolts torquing them is a poor way of tightening rod bolts since their clamping force is irregular.

( I would learn to use a rod bolt stretch gauge this should be your only way of tightening rod bolts)

ARP bolt have stretch specs I'd use them personally just because you cannot do that with oem bolts.

If whatever used crankshaft you get has surface irregularities I'd get it micropolish/or resized there are talks of not doing it since the oem manual states that its nitrided I've personally done it and haven't had any issues.

It's best if you can get away with just a polish though.

I have no other things to say about the items on your list if you need gasket p/n for mitsu I can help you out with that. I find its cheap to order all those gaskets in 1 shot from JNZ tuning .

P.S you may have to order freeze plugs too if the machine shop removes them for hot tanking.

 

[poppabear]

In regards to the crank, i do have a spare crank and pistons/rods ... i have 2 complete 7 bolts torn down to the block, so i am certain i can reuse the good crank, but yes the crank that spun the bearing = no good and the rod that spun = no good.

So you suggest just replace what is required to replace, if i don't have a reason to replace the pistons other than for them to be new, i should just reuse the old pistons and get the gaskets as i needed, also was going to get the RRE BSE kit. Whats your feedback on their product ?

Thanks again for all the useful info, I'm so ready to start this build.

 

[MidShipCivic]

In regards to the crank, i do have a spare crank and pistons/rods ... i have 2 complete 7 bolts torn down to the block, so i am certain i can reuse the good crank, but yes the crank that spun the bearing = no good and the rod that spun = no good.

So you suggest just replace what is required to replace, if i don't have a reason to replace the pistons other than for them to be new, i should just reuse the old pistons and get the gaskets as i needed, also was going to get the RRE BSE kit. Whats your feedback on their product ?

Thanks again for all the useful info, I'm so ready to start this build.

Yeah use the pistons that you were using already.

Isn't that RRE kit almost $60 Subtotal from JNZ would be about $38 then shipping on top of that but it's worth it to get all the other gaskets along with it.

 

[NiKKUH_BOViCE]

Don't recommend what you know little about there is a rule list above your post window it's #3 .

7 bolt have the same oil galley of a 6 bolt and the same thrust bearings why some engines have thrust bearing failures when others don't is a variety of reasons far beyond the simplistic solution of going with an older inferior engine.




Later 7 bolts do not have a thrust bearing they are thrust washers, if that's what you meant please ignore my comment.



You need to learn how to type if you want to post here.



You need the correct block to run thrust washer, thrust bearings on the other hand have a recess on the bearing bridge with in the engine block.



Don't use a topline crank they can have poor machining qualities and wear the thrust surface down on the bearing leading to immediate crankwalk. Stick with an oem crank if the journals are ''rough'' have it micropolished if not applicable have the journals resized in other words ''turned''.

There was a thread on here about 2 1/2 weeks ago a member used a brand new topline crank and his engine walked in a very short amount of time. Just be sure to check the bearing surfaces where the thrust bearing bears upon if it's rippled/uneven DO NOT USE that crankshaft.

no need to be a dick, just trying tohelp out. only 8 percent of 7 bolts get crankwalk, unfortunately its the turbo models.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

no need to be a dick, just trying tohelp out. only 8 percent of 7 bolts get crankwalk, unfortunately its the turbo models.

There is less than 2000 reported ACTUAL cases of REAL crankwalk, on 2g turbo DSM's. Thats nothing, the majority of us should never even worry about it.



Its is in the op's best concern to remove his oil squirters. Magnus Motorsports - Crankwalk Tech

 

[MidShipCivic]

There is less than 2000 reported ACTUAL cases of REAL crankwalk, on 2g turbo DSM's. Thats nothing, the majority of us should never even worry about it.



Its is in the op's best concern to remove his oil squirters. Magnus Motorsports - Crankwalk Tech

That Magnus article is indefinite for various reasons obvious reasons are using air and not oil at operating temps the whole thing is speculation and not a definite answer.


NiKKUH_BOViCE

You may have found my statement offensive, but if you think about this clearly it really isn't. Ppl who come to me and make statements about later motors manditory walking just because they are ''7 bolt'' is how this whole thing was started.

We don't know what really happen to these motors unless it happened to your engine personally. Foreign object damage, damaged crank, very tough pressure plate, oil type/age/conditions/ bearing material... there are TOO many variables. P.S. doesn't take a scientist, but it's definitely no superstition.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

That Magnus article is indefinite for various reasons obvious reasons are using air and not oil at operating temps the whole thing is speculation and not a definite answer.


NiKKUH_BOViCE

You may have found my statement offensive, but if you think about this clearly it really isn't. Ppl who come to me and make statements about later motors manditory walking just because they are ''7 bolt'' is how this whole thing was started.

We don't know what really happen to these motors unless it happened to your engine personally. Foreign object damage, damaged crank, very tough pressure plate, oil type/age/conditions/ bearing material... there are TOO many variables. P.S. doesn't take a scientist, but it's definitely no superstition.

The magnus article is VERY definite, if oil is being taken away from the bearing, then the chance of oil starvation to the thrust bearing is very likely to happen.

 

[MidShipCivic]

The magnus article is VERY definite, if oil is being taken away from the bearing, then the chance of oil starvation to the thrust bearing is very likely to happen.

No it is not, a 1g oil squirter takes oil away from the same galley the body of the other squirter itself holds more oil there is nothing you can say about that and it has NEVER been proven to do that.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

No it is not, a 1g oil squirter takes oil away from the same galley the body of the other squirter itself holds more oil there is nothing you can say about that and it has NEVER been proven to do that.

Look from where each oil squirter is fed, on 2g's its fed by the main bearings. On 1g's its fed by its own dedicated oil galleys.

 

[MidShipCivic]

Look from where each oil squirter is fed, on 2g's its fed by the main bearings. On 1g's its fed by its own dedicated oil galleys.

This oil pressure you're talking about is fed from the same place the main oil gallery they do not have their own galleries.

More over this has not proven to be the problem .

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

This oil pressure you're talking about is fed from the same place the main oil gallery they do not have their own galleries.

More over this has not proven to be the problem .

BUT, oil is being removed from the main bearings to feed the oil squirters.

 

[poppabear]

Ok,

Can we please keep on topic .... I don't want to have a thread full of pointless arguing. It doesn't matter to me about crankwalk, if i walk then i will deal with it. I am sticking with my 7 bolt motor bottom line. Lets get back to the recommended path for my $2000 rebuild.

Ok,

I don't want to spend a lot on cams if i don't need to, is it going to be a big difference to put in cams this early in my stage ? If it is still recommended, what other types of cams are good maybe no more than $350 for both int/exh ??

What is the recommended exhaust system Turbo Back AWD 2 1/2" - 3" , Do not want to spend more than about $300 - $350 on this.

This is what i have so far on my list:
DSMLink for $350
RRE BSE Kit - $54
550cc Injectors - $120
255 Walbro fuel pump - $100
Dejon Tool CIP-2gB Intake - $45 - HERE
ACL Rod bearings (non race) - $50
ACL Main bearings (non race) - $60
Decked/Resurfaced - $80
Honed/Bored .020 over - $80
Hot Tanked - $60
Crank Polished - $40
Complete Head Recon - $250
ARP Head Studs - $105
MITSU Head Gasket - $60

Complete Gasket Kit - $78 - HERE - what do you guys think about this kit ?

Also,

If i get the block Bored over .020 then i will be forced to get new pistons ? Or will I just need to get the right piston rings ? I would assume I would need new pistons.

Please DOWNLOAD the excel list, notice with that list i am already over budget, I need some help here ...

Thanks in advance

 

[joe sobo]

if you get the cylinders' bored, then you will need new pistons, but i think with your h.p goal, i would say stick with the stock ones

 

[poppabear]

if you get the cylinders' bored, then you will need new pistons, but i think with your h.p goal, i would say stick with the stock ones

Think i should try to just stay with the standard bore size ?

No one else has anything to add ? I'm ready to start ordering parts soon!