Newbie ForumBeginner/newbie/general DSM questions. first mods, how to run 10's when you haven't run 12's yet, any tech question that doesn't fit in another tech forum. New Members must limit their tech posts to this forum and sub-forums.
My question is a bit hard to explain. I'm going to be installing a 16g turbo soon...I am wondering if there is any difference in horsepower from the 14b.
For example, if you run 10psi on a 14b...is the 16g going to make more power at the same boost level (10psi)? If so, about how much more?
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To answer your first question, yes the 16g should make more power than your 14b at the same boost level because it will be moving more air. Your second question is pretty hard to estimate, because too many things come into play, such as supporting mods, condition of your motor, etc.
Nope doesn't work like that. The 14b at 10 psi can feed the engine about 24 lb/min at 6000 rpms. At 16 psi and 6000 rpms it can feed about 30 lb/min, then the 14b turbo is maxxed. So negating efficiency effects, the 16g will take over from the 14b at around 16 psi if your power peak occurs at 6000 rpms. There is no way you are going to notice a difference in power at 10 psi between the 2 turbos.
Nope doesn't work like that. The 14b at 10 psi can feed the engine about 24 lb/min at 6000 rpms. At 16 psi and 6000 rpms it can feed about 30 lb/min, then the 14b turbo is maxxed. So negating efficiency effects, the 16g will take over from the 14b at around 16 psi if your power peak occurs at 6000 rpms. There is no way you are going to notice a difference in power at 10 psi between the 2 turbos.
Well I wasn't necessarily talking about at 10psi, I just used that as an example. But you're sayng the 16g won't flow anymore than the 14b until after 16psi?
Now you're talking about compressor efficiency- not simply power made at a certain boost level. This is the reason that turbo choice is critical to the desired boost level you're planning on running. It's the age-old "I bought a bigger turbo, why isn't my car any faster?" question.
You must choose a turbo based on it's ability to move airflow at a desired boost level. A 14B's efficiency rating is matched well to the Talon's stock boost range, allowing a little extra power to be squeaked out as you up the boost....as pboglio mentioned above. Put a 16G in place of the 14B, and the larger 16G compressor wheel will flow more air *if* you run it into it's efficiency range with a higher boost level. If you run the same boost, there's a good chance the 14B will outflow the 16G.
Another efficiency example- I have a Snap-On Air Impact Wrench that's rated at over 600 ft-lb of torque if it's used at 180psi. My air compressor is maxxed out at 125psi, and the gun's torque level suffers drastically. I believe it makes less than 200 ft-lb of torque at 125psi....meaning the gun is 2/3 less effective at just 1/3 less air pressure.
This is what's so funny about the Honda guys that go out and blow $1500 on a GT35R and run 8psi because that's all their engine can handle. At that boost level, a 14B could probably move more air than the 35R, and it would spool twice as quick.
In the defense of most DSMer's, the 16G may generate less useable airflow at stock boost than a 14B, but it doesn't take long for a new 16G owner to purchase supporting mods and up the boost level into the 16G's efficiency range.
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~Justin~ '92 TSi FWD, '93 TSi AWD, '97 Eclipse GS
Well I wasn't necessarily talking about at 10psi, I just used that as an example. But you're sayng the 16g won't flow anymore than the 14b until after 16psi?
Oversimplying things, basically yes. I'd say around 15-16 psi. The 14b has a slightly smaller turbine housing than the 16g so there is some horsepower difference just in turbine backpressure. But basically they would be close in power at anything around 15-16 psi.
I've run the EVOIII 16g at 15-16 psi and it was a disappointment. Cranked it up to 28 psi and it was a monster.
I'm going to be doing the following all at the same time, so I'm sure if there is an increase in power it may be due to the other mods:
Evo3 exhaust manifold
16g
FMIC
Dumped O2 housing
Open 3" DP
Dejon Intake
Coil On Plug
Fuel Pump Rewire.
Now I have 450cc blacktops out of a 2g in the car as of right now. I'm not looking to upgrade my injectors until I get DSMLink and then I will be running 1000cc's. I am also not going to run a MBC until I can get a 255hp and AFPR. I can cut the FMIC for the time being and do the 255hp and AFPR instead, but I don't really want to use my SMIC with this setup. What's your take?
I was under the impression (though I'm not certain) that the 16g turbine housings flow slightly better than the 14b housings with a slight sacrifice in spool, they might in fact be the same though, I know that they are certainly interchangeable. In that case the 16g would make more power than the 14b because of a less restrictive exhaust (and consequently increased VE) which would be more noticeable with an aftermarket exhaust. Check out the turbo education thread which is stickied in the bolt on section.
Sweetspot for a 16g is 28 psi Seriously though, it would be around 18 psi where it feels good and the turbo boost hits crisply and decisively. Anything lower and its just mushy without any clear turbo "hit".
Sweetspot for a 16g is 28 psi Seriously though, it would be around 18 psi where it feels good and the turbo boost hits crisply and decisively. Anything lower and its just mushy without any clear turbo "hit".
10-4! I was planning on running my 16g around 20psi at the track and 16-18 on the street. But Im going to have an o2 dump so no city boosting for me lol
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91 tsi 60k on the clock.
Nope doesn't work like that. The 14b at 10 psi can feed the engine about 24 lb/min at 6000 rpms. At 16 psi and 6000 rpms it can feed about 30 lb/min, then the 14b turbo is maxxed. So negating efficiency effects, the 16g will take over from the 14b at around 16 psi if your power peak occurs at 6000 rpms. There is no way you are going to notice a difference in power at 10 psi between the 2 turbos.
Theres a HUGE difference between 16 and 20psi on a 14B. My 1g feels pretty darn good at 20psi, but with less it seems dead.
I'm going to be doing the following all at the same time, so I'm sure if there is an increase in power it may be due to the other mods:
Evo3 exhaust manifold
16g
FMIC
Dumped O2 housing
Open 3" DP
Dejon Intake
Coil On Plug
Fuel Pump Rewire.
Now I have 450cc blacktops out of a 2g in the car as of right now. I'm not looking to upgrade my injectors until I get DSMLink and then I will be running 1000cc's. I am also not going to run a MBC until I can get a 255hp and AFPR. I can cut the FMIC for the time being and do the 255hp and AFPR instead, but I don't really want to use my SMIC with this setup. What's your take?
You can save some money by not buying COP ignition. Youre stock is plenty capable of 4oo+whp. Put this money towards things you really need. A 16g will be fine with an evo8/9 pump which can be found used very cheap. Also if youre on a budget , you can pick up a 2g manifold and o2 housing pretty cheap and port them. A lot of it really depends what your ultimate goals are in the long run. If you just want 12s, you dont need a lot of big $ parts but if youll want to run 10-11s in the future then upgrade once and get the 255hp/afpr/1000cc/dsmlink,etc
You can save some money by not buying COP ignition. Youre stock is plenty capable of 4oo+whp. Put this money towards things you really need. A 16g will be fine with an evo8/9 pump which can be found used very cheap. Also if youre on a budget , you can pick up a 2g manifold and o2 housing pretty cheap and port them. A lot of it really depends what your ultimate goals are in the long run. If you just want 12s, you dont need a lot of big $ parts but if youll want to run 10-11s in the future then upgrade once and get the 255hp/afpr/1000cc/dsmlink,etc
I already have the Evo 3 manifold that's been mildly ported. I would rather just run a 255hp with an AFPR and be done with it, 1000cc's in the future and all tuned on DSMLink. 12's are my goal for now but who knows...maybe one day in the far far future it will be 10s or lower.
I'm also getting a dumped O2 housing from PR. My goal for the time being is 350whp +/- 25. Goal for the long run is higher, hence 1000cc's...do it once and be done with it.
I already have the Evo 3 manifold that's been mildly ported. I would rather just run a 255hp with an AFPR and be done with it, 1000cc's in the future and all tuned on DSMLink. 12's are my goal for now but who knows...maybe one day in the far far future it will be 10s or lower.
I'm also getting a dumped O2 housing from PR. My goal for the time being is 350whp +/- 25. Goal for the long run is higher, hence 1000cc's...do it once and be done with it.
Interesting setup. Going to be running E85? 350 whp shouldn't be too hard, not with an EVOIII 16g. I like cams as an upgrade, man they make a nice difference.
On a slightly different note and to illustrate the differences between even small turbos, I used to run a T28 which is equal to a small 16g. Great daily driver, car pulled 38 lb/min on average, right around 380 h.p. estimate logged on DSMLink. Then I slapped on the EVOIII 16g and ended up pulling 44 lb/min and 440 h.p logged on DSMLink. Now that is 6 lb/min and 60 h.p. difference going from essentially a small 16g sized turbo to the EVOIII 16g.
So, most definitely you will see an enormous power increase going from the 14b to an EVOIII 16g if your tuned right and with enough boost.
Interesting setup. Going to be running E85? 350 whp shouldn't be too hard, not with an EVOIII 16g. I like cams as an upgrade, man they make a nice difference.
On a slightly different note and to illustrate the differences between even small turbos, I used to run a T28 which is equal to a small 16g. Great daily driver, car pulled 38 lb/min on average, right around 380 h.p. estimate logged on DSMLink. Then I slapped on the EVOIII 16g and ended up pulling 44 lb/min and 440 h.p logged on DSMLink. Now that is 6 lb/min and 60 h.p. difference going from essentially a small 16g sized turbo to the EVOIII 16g.
So, most definitely you will see an enormous power increase going from the 14b to an EVOIII 16g if your tuned right and with enough boost.
E85 in the future, yes. We're taking baby steps here. I only have so much play money. I wish I could do absolutely everything I want and be done with it but I can't. But that's life! There are priorities that are more important than modding a vehicle!
I was thinking of cams. At least 280s but possibly 288s. What's your take? I would be doing a complete BC valvetrain with the cams.
I've ran my 16g like this:
@ 10lbs: garbage (10.5ish:1 AFRs - I didn't wanna break anything after the swap)
@ 16lbs: garbage (10.6ish:1 AFRs - 14b put more seat horsepower)
@ 22lbs: felt decent (11:1 AFRs - Pretty decent but knew there was more)
@ 28lbs: Baller. (10.9AFRs - I didn't think a 16g could feel that good. Maybe it was just good tuning I wasn't accustomed to. Just like above the car started to get dirty and it's about this time I started blowing ICpipes off at the track)
All AFRs were taken @ WOT on 92. Course my setup isn't really stock: RC550's, A-1000 FPR, sAFC2, FMIC, Exhaust, Adj. Gears + 272cams, 1mm o/s valves + ti double springs and retainers etc.. lol my 16g will start to build some creep about 2800lbs, by 32 it'll spoo about 12lbs, @ 36 it gets a full 28 and hold til a little past 7000 and starts to drop some.
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1992 AWD w/ 16G and a bunch of other stuff
I've ran my 16g like this:
@ 10lbs: garbage (10.5ish:1 AFRs - I didn't wanna break anything after the swap)
@ 16lbs: garbage (10.6ish:1 AFRs - 14b put more seat horsepower)
@ 22lbs: felt decent (11:1 AFRs - Pretty decent but knew there was more)
@ 28lbs: Baller. (10.9AFRs - I didn't think a 16g could feel that good. Maybe it was just good tuning I wasn't accustomed to. Just like above the car started to get dirty and it's about this time I started blowing ICpipes off at the track)
All AFRs were taken @ WOT on 92. Course my setup isn't really stock: RC550's, A-1000 FPR, sAFC2, FMIC, Exhaust, Adj. Gears + 272cams, 1mm o/s valves + ti double springs and retainers etc.. lol my 16g will start to build some creep about 2800lbs, by 32 it'll spoo about 12lbs, @ 36 it gets a full 28 and hold til a little past 7000 and starts to drop some.
You run 28psi with a 16g on 92 pump? Aren't you getting crazy amounts of knock?
EDIT: Also I didn't think this would be possible on 550s. Pboglio, I see that you have a 150lph fuel pump, I also didn't think that would be possible at 28psi.
Its' possible on a rewire. I'm not showing any signs of the fuel pump slowing so its holding up so far.
I would no way in hell run 280 cams myself. Even Curt Brown hated them on his DSM and got rid of them for FP4R/FP5R's. I've heard nothing but phenomenal things about Kelford 272/272 cams and they've been dynoed to pick up +60 h.p. over the standard EVO cams on an EVO setup. About the equivalent of the FP4R/FP5R but with better drivability. They did an entire cam dyno shootout on forums.evolutionm.net. Kelford's all the way
Pboglio. I don't know where you're getting your lb/min maximum for the 14b. But the compressor is a 34lb/min compressor. Yea, it would be hard to get that flow out of the motor via the 6cm^2 turbine housing but. The 14b is definately NOT maxed at 30lb/min.
.23m^3/sec X 60sec X 35.3ft^3/m^3 = 490CFM. 490CFM X .07 = 34lb/min during typical ambient temp & pressure at the inlet.
I do agree that the 16g takes over after 16ish psi with a stock longblock. But this is because of the 6cm^2 turbine housing on the 14b. 10ps, the power differences is not noticable, unless you have cams, and other flow upgrades. But a 7cm^2 turbine housing on a 14b causes the 14b to really SHINE at 20psi. I didn't see a difference in butt dyno all the way to 33-34lb/min vs. the small 16g. Well, technically she did feel stronger with the 14b, because I did see a faster spool speed with the 14b and 7cm^2 turbine housing vs. the small 16g. But nothing felt different (nor was there a real difference in flow) if I started after 3500rpm.
Man, I love the underdog
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
At a PR of 2.1, which is 16 psi, the 14b would be maxxed "roughly" 30 lb/min and the motor would be ingesting 30 lb/min give or take a few. EVOIII 16g would be capable of 39 lb/min at PR of 2.1 but would be limited still by the motors at 30 lb/min. This would be a break even point.
In the real world, sure the 14b can flow more at 20 psi, but so would the EVOIII 16g.
At a PR of 2.1, which is 16 psi, the 14b would be maxxed "roughly" 30 lb/min and the motor would be ingesting 30 lb/min give or take a few. EVOIII 16g would be capable of 39 lb/min at PR of 2.1 but would be limited still by the motors at 30 lb/min. This would be a break even point.
In the real world, sure the 14b can flow more at 20 psi, but so would the EVOIII 16g.
I think i'm the only one here running a 14b at 30psi. Not on purpose though. After the massive exhaust i creep from the old 12psi to 29.6ish. (peak recall on boost gauge)
But the fuel pump runs out of juice at about 22 psi so it jerks and leans out on itself. So now that i've got the external gate, i just need a housing to mount it and manage boost I've thought about going with an evo3 16g, but for one i have a FWD, and for two i doubt I can tune for the power upgrade on an saf-c. Please educate me guys! I'm planning on slapping a 255hp on. I have a guy that runs 11's and he says i won't need an afpr to run the 255lph.
I think i'm the only one here running a 14b at 30psi. Not on purpose though. After the massive exhaust i creep from the old 12psi to 29.6ish. (peak recall on boost gauge)
But the fuel pump runs out of juice at about 22 psi so it jerks and leans out on itself. So now that i've got the external gate, i just need a housing to mount it and manage boost I've thought about going with an evo3 16g, but for one i have a FWD, and for two i doubt I can tune for the power upgrade on an saf-c. Please educate me guys! I'm planning on slapping a 255hp on. I have a guy that runs 11's and he says i won't need an afpr to run the 255lph.
You WILL need an afpr. You can tune with the safc. But you will also need a logger and a wideband to do it correctly.
You don't have to have a afpr. It nice to have one though your gas milage will suffer without one. I have a 255hp rewired on the stock fpr and its fine to me i get about 15mpg average on e85 which isn't to bad. My car traps 115 so it fast enough to get into the 11's without one.
I have a logger and wideband i'm not a dummy. I just need to get more umph from the fuel system. you guys think a 190 will be sufficient and not hurt fuel economy?
Seriously though, it would be around 18 psi where it feels good and the turbo boost hits crisply and decisively. Anything lower and its just mushy without any clear turbo "hit".
Aren't you getting crazy amounts of knock?
I've thought about going with an evo3 16g, but for one i have a FWD, and for two i doubt I can tune for the power upgrade on an saf-c. Please educate me guys! I'm planning on slapping a 255hp on. I have a guy that runs 11's and he says i won't need an afpr to run the 255lph.
