Bigger turbo yay or nay?

[1sicvr4]

Hey guys I'm just contemplation on whether or not I should go for a bigger turbo than my evo3 big 16g on my e39a vr4. I'm missing like half my engine right now so It might be easier in the long run(if my setup is upto it) to upgrade now and save me the hassle later. Just looking for your guys opinions on whether I should upgrade or not so please feel to contribute Here is what is/what's going on my vr4:

Evo3 exhaust manifold (with external wastegate port)
38mm external wastegate
Evo4 510cc yellow top injectors (Will be going bigger probably around 700-750cc)
Evo2 Air Flow Meter(MAF)
Custom intake pipe behind headlight
2.5inch intercooler piping
550x230x100 intercooler
Walbro 500hp fuel pump
Fuel pump rewired
Sard afpr
Adjustable camgears
Adjustable boost controller
Sheepdog bov
Big Bore exhaust 3" straight off turbo
K&N Pod filter
Custom chip
Apexi neo
Oil catch can
272 cams
aftermarket valve springs and retainers
Datalogger

(Probably missed a thing or 2)

From what I gather on my setup I should be able to go bigger than a 16g? I'm looking at a tdo5 20g what are your guys opinions on the tdo5 20g? I'm looking at a 20g because it's a straight bolt on and I don't have to waste time and money on a new manifold etc. My goals for my car is to (one day)get upto and beyond 400hp at the wheels on pump gas which the 20g seems to be able to achieve. Whats the spool up like on the 20g? As I obviously want it pretty streetable. Thanks for your guys input

 

[z24frank]

I thought I heard that the neo wasnt good for our cars?

 

[SeMi380]

a 20g will take you upwards of 500hp if you want. When that thing spools it's gonna feel like you just got in a car accident. by the way I think you mean a walbro 255lph fuel pump and ummm stay away from chips in these cars. I personally think you should forget about the neo and anything else you have there for tuning and get dsmlink v3 (or ecmlink whatever you wanna call it). You should already have a eprom ecu in your car and ecmlink is plug and play and you can change ANYTHING you want.

 

[selmerguy]

How is he going to get dsmlink v3 when it not out yet? If you want to push your car you need a snail to push some air. The 16g has been proven to go into the higher HP realms with great tuning. The choice is yours.

 

[fwdmaster]

I would go with a PTE 50trim

 

[SeMi380]

How is he going to get dsmlink v3 when it not out yet? If you want to push your car you need a snail to push some air. The 16g has been proven to go into the higher HP realms with great tuning. The choice is yours.

It comes out this month and he said his car wasn't running right now so I figure by the time he gets everything it would be out.

 

[JusMX141]

I'm looking at a tdo5 20g what are your guys opinions on the tdo5 20g? Whats the spool up like on the 20g?

EXCELLENT turbo. Mitsubishi reliability in a direct bolt-on turbo...no need to buy any additonal oil supply / drain lines- you can't ask for anything better. The PTE turbos wish they held up like a 20G!

My buddy ran a TD05H 20G for one season on his 2G TSi before upgrading to something a bit larger as the car went further from being a street car and more to a race machine. The TD05H turbine will become a restriction at around 25psi, but that turbo is one mean street turbo. Full spool around 3700-3800, and it hits much harder than an Evo III 16G.

 

[1sicvr4]

I always thought that a neo (s-afc) and a chip written out to your specific (probably spelt wrong) mods eg injector compensation for bigger injectors and a datalogger was a great way to tune a 4g63t?Well at least thats the impression I've gotten from the vast amounts of articles and forum posts Ive read on how to mod a dsm I'm just using the same recipe thats been successful for others in the past. I know that the dsmlink is a great management system but to be perfectly honest I don't think I would need it for my current mods. I think the money that I could spend on a dsmlink could be better used in other places. Taking into account the New Zealand dollar is basically half the US dollar right now I would be paying $1000 before shipping thats a $1000 I could be using to do A LOT of other things.

What a great endorsement jusmx141 Do you think My setup will be capable of running 20g tho?

 

[JayRolla]

If you plan on a large turbo than plan on a different ems. The safc will work but anything over 550cc injectors can cause high timing which you dont want. Unless you run e85 or meth injection.
So larger turbo means more injector which means safc will have its limits. Timing will rise and cause lots of detonation on pump gas.

If you got some meth injection you could boost the hell out of the 16g. On e85 I spike to 30psi and hold about 24psi to redline. At a stock base timing with 1200's and a safc/maf-t setup I see 27* peak timing and no knock. Thats a little high and may be robbing power. I have to pull back to 0* base to get 22* peak and that kills drivability.

 

[JusMX141]

What a great endorsement jusmx141 Do you think My setup will be capable of running 20g tho?

Absolutely. Your 272's will take away a little bit of the torquey "hit" that a TD05H 20G would give in trade for more pull on top.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I think a TD06 20g is going to be my next turbo, I'm just waiting around trying to find a good deal on a used one.

 

[tristanmb81]

who sells 20g's?

 

[JayRolla]

If you cant find a good used one than you dont want one. They sell for way too much and a lot better turbos can be bought. The 20g is old school, but dont get me wrong, its a real potent turbo. I would look into the FP turbo line or a holset.

 

[tristanmb81]

i was looking at scm50 trim bb.... but i dont feel like going through modifying my water lines.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

If you cant find a good used one than you dont want one. They sell for way too much and a lot better turbos can be bought. The 20g is old school, but dont get me wrong, its a real potent turbo. I would look into the FP turbo line or a holset.

I don't care if it's old school. It's just as old school as all of the 16g's we run around with. And you're right there are a lot of other turbos out there and for less money. But for a bolt on 500whp ability turbo you can't beat the reliability and proven performance of a MHI 20G.

The only thing I'd have to change on my setup is getting rid of the J-pipe and hooking the coupler strait up to the turbo. And possibly getting larger injectors than my 650's if I want to push it really hard.

who sells 20g's?

No one sells their good condition used 20g's that's why they're hard to find!!

Or were you asking what vendor sells them?

 

[force it in]

a 20g will take you upwards of 500hp if you want. When that thing spools it's gonna feel like you just got in a car accident. by the way I think you mean a walbro 255lph fuel pump and ummm stay away from chips in these cars. I personally think you should forget about the neo and anything else you have there for tuning and get dsmlink v3 (or ecmlink whatever you wanna call it). You should already have a eprom ecu in your car and ecmlink is plug and play and you can change ANYTHING you want.

You aren't refering to Keydiver chips are you?

 

[1sicvr4]

I dunno what chips SeMi380 are talking about but my chip is a Keydiver chip. Well not written my Keydiver himself but theres a guy locally that writes them he's very respected in the dsm community over here and his chips have been proven to work very successfully in a lot of cars so I know I'm not getting a crappy chip.

So do you guys think that I'll have to upgrade to a dsmlink to be able to upgrade and run a 20g successfully? By the sounds of things the neo wont be up to the job. I'm not too keen for detonation

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

If your chip is programmed correctly you shouldn't have any problems going with a larger turbo. Your MAS will see the larger amount of air and will throw more fuel at it. If your injectors and fuel pump aren't up to the job to keep up with that airflow your AFR will rise and you will get some knock. You don't need to rethink your tuning solution until you change something in your fuel system. Even then I say just get your chip re burnt for the correct parameters and keep your NEO for the fine adjustments.

 

[JayRolla]

I don't care if it's old school. It's just as old school as all of the 16g's we run around with. And you're right there are a lot of other turbos out there and for less money. But for a bolt on 500whp ability turbo you can't beat the reliability and proven performance of a MHI 20G.

The only thing I'd have to change on my setup is getting rid of the J-pipe and hooking the coupler strait up to the turbo. And possibly getting larger injectors than my 650's if I want to push it really hard.



No one sells their good condition used 20g's that's why they're hard to find!!

Or were you asking what vendor sells them?

A holset with the bep housing can be had for cheaper than a 16g. It will outflow, spool and last as long or longer than a 20g. PTE has turbos for $900 that will outperform the 2-g and direct bolt on. FP is a little more but they have bolt ons that will outperform.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

You're absolutely right... I do not argue with you on those points. I'm just saying you can't go wrong with a 20g when it's proven to make gobs of power and has been one of the building blocks of DSM performance for years!!

And you're also right on if I don't find a used TD06 20g out there I'll probably go with a holset. I've had my eye on a Local HX-40 for a while now. But my first choice would be the 20g.

But I'm seriously not a big fan of large turbo cars. I consider a 20g a mid sized turbo. I'm certainly not about to hop onto the GTXXR bandwagon just because a lot of other people have made HUGE power on them. I'll throw a bolt on TD06 20g on there and shoot for 450-500hp. If I want more I'll put some nitrous on it. I know I can do it we made 400hp on an 18g @23psi on boost alone.

Sorry, I'm pretty set in my ways and I know what I want.

 

[z24frank]

I always thought that a neo (s-afc) and a chip written out to your specific (probably spelt wrong) mods eg injector compensation for bigger injectors and a datalogger was a great way to tune a 4g63t?Well at least thats the impression I've gotten from the vast amounts of articles and forum posts Ive read on how to mod a dsm I'm just using the same recipe thats been successful for others in the past. I know that the dsmlink is a great management system but to be perfectly honest I don't think I would need it for my current mods. I think the money that I could spend on a dsmlink could be better used in other places. Taking into account the New Zealand dollar is basically half the US dollar right now I would be paying $1000 before shipping thats a $1000 I could be using to do A LOT of other things.

What a great endorsement jusmx141 Do you think My setup will be capable of running 20g tho?

The s-afc yes but the neo for some reason isnt?Thats what I heard at least Ill try and find the thread.

Oh and to add to the topic even if you find a 20g that needs work the re build kits are cheap enough .eBay Motors: Turbo Rebuild Kit Mitsubishi TD05H TD06 16G 18G 20G (item 220323755344 end time Dec-10-08 15:38:54 PST)

 

[JayRolla]

The 20g is a good mid sized turbo but spools like a dog. Almost like its bigger than it really is. HX35 would be a good midsized turbo instead of the 40.

 

[1sicvr4]

The s-afc yes but the neo for some reason isnt?Thats what I heard at least Ill try and find the thread.

Wow thats a pretty interesting point you bring up z24frank. I'll have a look for the thread myself when I have the time, anyone else got anything to say about neo vs s-afc when it comes to tuning? I forked out a bit extra to get a neo over a s-afc because I thought that it would be an improvement and a better unit (as it should be) over the s-afc. Guess maybe not?

 

[dsm-onster]

Holset rebuild kits are rediculously cheap, too. I like the 20g, but considering just as much or more has to be invested in a 20g setup vs other bolton turbos that are PROVEN to flow more and spool faster with the same reliability record, I'm still not sure why the 20g is so heavily recommended. ???

The 20g is heritage to DSM!!! But so is the 302 to Ford .

You're absolutely right... I do not argue with you on those points. I'm just saying you can't go wrong with a 20g when it's proven to make gobs of power and has been one of the building blocks of DSM performance for years!!

And you're also right on if I don't find a used TD06 20g out there I'll probably go with a holset. I've had my eye on a Local HX-40 for a while now. But my first choice would be the 20g.

But I'm seriously not a big fan of large turbo cars. I consider a 20g a mid sized turbo. I'm certainly not about to hop onto the GTXXR bandwagon just because a lot of other people have made HUGE power on them. I'll throw a bolt on TD06 20g on there and shoot for 450-500hp. If I want more I'll put some nitrous on it. I know I can do it we made 400hp on an 18g @23psi on boost alone.

Sorry, I'm pretty set in my ways and I know what I want.

Why do you want to by a used 20g over a used hx35? Just curious. Is there some advantage? I would understand if you wanted more lag with less peak flow potential if you're FWD. I though I was pretty well versed in the MHI turbos, but I could be definately missing something. I completely agree that the gt is not the way to go just because others have. They have terrible spool speed for their flow comparatively.

I paid under $500 for my used bolton big h1c setup which flows as much as a 20g. Now full boost by 3500rpms with my fp2X cams definately takes more skill to control with my FWD. I was still at the begining of the learning curve of that skill. But I've since aquired an AWD shell.

The td05h 20g would not be on my list of a real upgrade to your current turbo. The compressor is bigger. But you can have a compressor the size of a truck wheel and it won't matter if you can't get out of the engine nearly as much airflow as you would otherwise beable to put in it. The td05h 20g has the same turbine as the evo3 16g. Swapping the compressor wheel won't make the turbine flow more out the motor. The evo3 16g compressor could probably benefit from a turbine upgrade itself. Now the td05h 20g spools to full boost by 3800rpms. and the bolton hx35 by 3500rpms, not too much dofference. But the hx35 can do much more on pumpgas and has a much higher peak hp potential than the td05h 20g. The td06H 20g can probably keep up with the hx35 with pumpgas numbers, but spools to full boost by 4K or later. And the hx35 compressor still outflows the 20g compressor by about 4lb/min.

I agree that a bigger turbo than the evo3 16g would be better for a 400whp pumpgas goal with you're setup. A 20g compressor, a Holset compressor, a Borg-Warner compressor, a Garrett compressor all will require modifying the intercooler piping vs. your current 16g setup. The FP td06 20g, BEP housing hx35/h1c, Bolton s256, PTE 5031, or FP3052 all are not as bolton as the 16g. But these are all the "next step" from the 16g, can do 400whp with pump gas, and are "bolt on".

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I have always had it in the back of my head that the next logical upgrade for me would be the 20g. Seems to me all of the holset turbos I find on Ebay are beat up and need rebuilds. And I never seem to find any 20g's out there and the TD05h 20g is out of the question. I emailed a guy about a TD06h 20g in the classifieds the other day. It had been on there for 2 days and was already sold. I know it's going to be a stretch to find one so I have already started looking at other options. Like I said earlier I might look into the HX35 or 40. Now, I don't have the money for any of this so you guys do have time to win me over to the Holset dark side.