Tire blew today, camber issue?

[Mistaspakles]

To start out with, I've got a 97 Eclipse Spyder with Eibach lowering springs and Tokico Illuminas. The car was aligned fine with no pulling to the left or right. Recently I had to get my ball joints replaced and the shop told me to get an alignment after the job. I took it to Tires Plus and the said the toe was fine, but the camber was off by 2 degrees and they could not correct it (said I needed a camber kit). I kept driving because the pull to the left was slight, so I didn't mind it. So yesterday I did the annual winter-to-summer tire swap, and today my left front (driver's side) goes down. I take of the tire and the inner side wall is completely chewed up (some of it just tore out). Could this be because of the camber being off by two degrees, or is it coincidence that the tire just gave out (it's not a new tire, but I don't think it's that old either). Size is 225/45/17. Thoughts?

 

[wimploki]

I have the same issues. My car pulls to the left and is long overdue for an alignment. My front passenger sides tire inner wall is almost ready to go.

This is w/ koni shocks and eibach springs.

 

[absolute_DSM]

Toe causes the wear, not the camber.

If you have chunks gone, you have other issues.

 

[wret]

Mistaspakles, you've been around a while and you're a "proven" member. You can post in other forums, like "Handling" and avoid misguided advice like this:

you are putting most of the weight of the car due to its camber on the inner wall also most of the heat there as well.. I would blame camber ya.

s absolute_DSM suggested, you likely have other issues. Negative camber and correct toe setting will not cause excessive tire wear and in certain situations it can actually extend tire wear. If your car is primarily street driven, you may want to get the correction kit but either way, you need to get the toe taken care of. If you do decide on correcting the camber you will need to get it aligned again.

 

[wret]

I guess somehow I didn't make the point clearly enough:

Negative camber will not cause severe tire wear. Negative camber in conjuction with misaligned toe, will cause severe tire wear.

The next one to spout: "Yup, cambers the problem," gets negative rep points.

 

[DJYoshaBYD]

wow.. post deleted.. right on.. Would someone kindly explain why riding on the inside of the tire's footprint would extend life? especially when the shop said that the toe is fine..

Everything I have ever been taught, read, and have seen has proven otherwise.. Im not trying to argue, but I always see this happen.. its happened to me, and everyone else I have ever met in my whole car enthusiast life that has lowered their car without using a camber kit, has had MAJOR wear on the inside of the tires, and you can even compare it to a shop manual where they show the tire wear to help diagnose suspension problems.. every time I have seen it, it has been a TEXT BOOK example of bad camber..

again, I would just like some education on it, because apparently everything I have ever learned about camber is wrong?

 

[wret]

Your post was deleted because it contained two things we don't allow in the forums: hearsay and misinformation.

Anyone who's ever put more than a little thought into how to make a car handle better around curves knows that if a car's suspension is set to zero camber, when the car leans away from a curve, the tires are no longer flat on the ground. A driver who is moderately aggressive around curves would find that this set up leads to greater wear at the outside of the tire tread and would compensate with some negative camber. A serious auto-crosser would set camber several degrees negative so that during the maximum cornering force, the outside tires become flat to the ground. Said auto-crosser would either scale the negative camber back to a reasonable amount for street driving, not drive the car on the street, or live increased tire wear.

That said, most of don't end up with negative camber by design, it's a side effect of lowering the suspension. For the hard turner, this kills two birds with one stone: lower center of gravity and optimized camber (somewhat). That said, a lot of negative camber is not right for everyone. My mom doesn't need it on her Ford Focus and the average street driver may not benefit.

How does negative camber affect tire wear? Obviously when traveling a straight line, there will be more weight on the inside of the contact patch and the car must resist "camber thrust" that is created with non-zero camber, but with correct toe settings and camber that is set correctly for your driving style, you should use your street tires well into their tread-wear warrantee.

 

[DJYoshaBYD]

Your post was deleted because it contained two things we don't allow in the forums: hearsay and misinformation.

Anyone who’s ever put more than a little thought into how to make a car handle better around curves knows that if a car’s suspension is set to zero camber, when the car leans away from a curve, the tires are no longer flat on the ground. A driver who is moderately aggressive around curves would find that this set up leads to greater wear at the outside of the tire tread and would compensate with some negative camber. A serious auto-crosser would set camber several degrees negative so that during the maximum cornering force, the outside tires become flat to the ground. Said auto-crosser would either scale the negative camber back to a reasonable amount for street driving, not drive the car on the street, or live increased tire wear.

That said, most of don’t end up with negative camber by design, it’s a side effect of lowering the suspension. For the hard turner, this kills two birds with one stone: lower center of gravity and optimized camber (somewhat). That said, a lot of negative camber is not right for everyone. My mom doesn’t need it on her Ford Focus and the average street driver may not benefit.

How does negative camber affect tire wear? Obviously when traveling a straight line, there will be more weight on the inside of the contact patch and the car must resist “camber thrust” that is created with non-zero camber, but with correct toe settings and camber that is set correctly for your driving style, you should use your street tires well into their tread-wear warrantee.

but he hasnt set his camber.. Its just sloppy from being lowered, and had yet to be dialed in.. Alot of people do not know what I said was misinformation..

I still ask, why would everyone I have ever met who lowered their car, even after getting it aligned (minus the camber, obviously) suffer premature tire wear? Everyone who lowers their car throws off their toe angle, even if the shop says its properly aligned?

So how would one "correctly align the toe" so that you dont need to have a camber kit, because I know alot of people who have premature tire wear from lowering their car, and every shop they have every been to has said that they need a camber kit, because everything else is lined up...

I just dont get how everyone suffers from this, but its not camber, but then they get the camber dialed in, and their tire wear is normal again.. It goes against everything that alot of people know.. Seriously, I know I am not alone, when I say this is news to me...

 

[wret]

I didn't say the OP wouldn't benefit from camber correction, in fact I encouraged it. But I would also encourage him to do so with his particular driving style in mind.

I still ask, why would everyone I have ever met who lowered their car, even after getting it aligned (minus the camber, obviously) suffer premature tire wear?

I don't know, we haven't met.

Everyone who lowers their car throws off their toe angle, even if the shop says its properly aligned?

In spite of being followed by a question mark, this does not seem to be a question. If you meant to ask "Does everyone who lowers their car throw off their toe angle?" then the answer is yes, both toe and camber are changed when lowering the suspension.

Most alignment shops will not give you an option to set alignment angles outside recommended ranges for your vehicle and may refuse to set toe if other parameters cannot be brought into spec. You may have to shop around a bit to find one that will be willing to use your "performance" settings, or do it yourself. There is no doubt that you would get longer wearing tires with stock settings, on stock suspension, traveling in a straight line, and under the speed limit. But, Hello, this is a performance forum. We alter just about everything we can to fit our idea of performance and fun.

...and just because more than one person "knows" a thing does not make it true.

 

[DJYoshaBYD]

haha.. yeah.. of course we do.. we cannot help it...

I know we havent met, but no one autocrosses their car driving down main street.. most of the tuners i meet drive around in the street, with no hard cornering (at least I hope not), and have no need for a super tuned suspension.. They all just dump the ride, get a camber kit, and have the car aligned, and that's all the need for their tires to last longer..

So you are saying, that if I lower my car right now, and drive around town like a normal DD, and have everything but the camber adjusted (like the cat that started this thread), then I will not see ANY premature tire wear? Camber kits are not needed if everything else is in line, and the car is a to and from work, home, and the beach type of ride? Just a street driver? Cause I have done this on my cars, and without the camber being pulled in, the inside tread of the tires wears faster... Most street tuners are just that.. Street drivers.. Like this guy.. And he said that the inside of his tire was worn out, and his whole alignment, with the exception of camber, was adjusted...

Tire wear from bad camber

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These are all examples of street drivers, with everything else adjusted but camber... this is what I see all the time, until someone corrects their camber... That is why I am confused..

I understand track settings can be different, but we are talking about a street car, not a track car..

 

[wret]

Nice pictures. #3 Is a good example of a tire used well beyond it's life expectancy with a reasonable amount of negative camber. #1 and #5 likely had some worn suspension parts contribute to their uneven wear. #4 looks like a toe setting issue, with or without a contributing camber issue.

 

[DJYoshaBYD]

Thats just what Im saying though...

Ok.. lets get down to brass tacks...

Dumping a car, and getting it aligned without having the camber adjusted:

Will it or will it not make your tires wear out the inside fast?

and why or why not?

this is a good thread

and this is a street car.. a DD.. not a track car

 

[wret]

For a car not subjected to hard cornering, regardless of how it is induced ("dumping" or otherwise), a reasonable amount of non-zero camber (with other settings optimized) will cause a slight concentration of tread-wear on one side of the tire. Non-zero toe will cause mild to severe wear, proportional to the severity of the misalignment. Non-zero toe, in conjuction with non-zero camber, will lead to further accelerated severe tire wear.

 

[DJYoshaBYD]

ok.. so combo of both?

 

[Mistaspakles]

I think the issue may lie in the people who put on my tire. The tire was fine. I had it put on, on Suday and it blew out on Monday. The tire was used, but still in good condition. Chunks of the inside wall were torn out, but I'm attributing that to me driving on it (unknowingly) while it was flat for a mile or so.

What's weird (and please help me understand if you can) was that the car was aligned fine and drove straight until a month ago when I had the front ball joints replaced (The car was lowered long before that). When I took it to Tires Plus to get it aligned, they said the camber was off by 2 degrees. I was just concerned that the negative camber might have caused the 225 tires to rub up against something to cause the flat.

Thanks guys,

 

[DJYoshaBYD]

If they were rubbing bad enough to rupture the tire, you would for sure feel/hear it.. And they wouldn't go out that fast.. What I was talking about was just wear, but not able to straight up cause a blowout a day later...

Is there even a small chance you hit a bottle or something JUST right to rip the inside of the tire open? Can you post a pic of the tire?

 

[wret]

I was just concerned that the negative camber might have caused the 225 tires to rub up against something to cause the flat.

No. When you lower a vehicle, you just change the resting point of the suspension movement. All the components are still traveling in their designed path without obstruction. It's not until after you start messing with camber that you change the suspension design enough to potentially cause obstruction to the free movement of the suspension.

It sounds like found other issues that contributed to the sudden decline or your tire integrity.