Turbo Block

[GODCHSR]

I just got my hands on a 1G Talon for next to nothing but High miles. I'm planning on keeping it as my DD so I can give my 300ZX TT a rest from the daily grind...

Since it has High miles I am looking for possible options to upgrade the block.

From what I've read thus far the blocks are interchangeable (Turbo/NA) with the pistons being different. BUT Are the pistons the only internal part that is different? Thus being the only reason for the compression difference as well?

As for the head I can only assume at this point that they are the same on both turbo and NA applications???

 

[wvturbo2]

The turbo block has oil squirters. If its N/a why not just rebuild what you have or buy another n/a block. I don't consider the turbo block as even an upgrade for the N/A

 

[GODCHSR]

Obviously I would add the stock turbo setup. I would never run that low of compression without a turbo.

For example... I'm wondering if the Turbo pistons are cast or forged? If the heads are the same? and you answered the other question aboput the oil squirters.

 

[marcmsj]

Heads have the same cast but they are different (cams, etc.)

 

[GODCHSR]

I JUST found that out in a NA to Turbo swap forum. Apparently ther Intake Cam is the difference. I can only assume that the exhaust cam is the the same for now.

BTW anyone have a clue why I can't post in other threads? I tried to hop on that thread but it said I couldn't respond.?.?.?

 

[Cs4g63]

The reason you are not able to post in other threads is because you are still a new member.

 

[GODCHSR]

Cool... I figured there must be some elitest system setup. No biggy... I've got time. I just wish I could get involved in some of those discussions.

 

[Xeiros]

I JUST found that out in a NA to Turbo swap forum. Apparently ther Intake Cam is the difference. I can only assume that the exhaust cam is the the same for now.

BTW anyone have a clue why I can't post in other threads? I tried to hop on that thread but it said I couldn't respond.?.?.?

You'll be stuck posting in the newbies section till you've contributed enough to have your member status bumped up to proven member. If you know a lot, and can help people with their problems, you'll be there in no time. If you don't, you'll likely be stuck with the New Member status for quite some time.


I'd recommend you look into building up your current NT block. As was mentioned, oil squirters are on the turbo block. I'd grab some of those and a rebuild kit. Off the top of my head, I don't know if there are any discrepancies or differences between the NT and Turbo pistons and rods as well as stroke.

It is a 4G63, so my guess is that use the same piston size and stroke, just different pistons for different compression ratio's. I'd have someone confirm that though.

 

[1g_tsi_awd]

You may want to check the CR... It might be kinda high. Do a compression test, and figure it out and get back to us.


For future reference:
((pi/4)Cylinder bore * stoke + colume Combustion chamber)/ volume of combustion chamber

You might have known that but I figured I would put it in anyways...

 

[GODCHSR]

haha No problem!

I JUST picked it up, so I haven't done ANYTHING to it. I figure the CR is within the limits but I will do a test just to make sure it's good.

Thanks for the advice to build my current block. I will follow that route!

The other thread stated that I'd need to use the Turbo Pistons which are lower compression, more durable and have a thicker ring lip...
Anybody know what a 'good' price for a set of those should be? Or brands that are good but cost effective?

 

[1g_tsi_awd]

Do you want aftermarket of OEM?

 

[Xeiros]

This is a pretty good price for a rebuild kit (at least I think so) for a 1G 6bolt.

http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/product.php?productid=1088&cat=47&page=1

The one thing to consider though is whether you have a 6bolt or 7bolt block. I see you've got a 92. If you car was made after April, I believe you have a 7 bolt, but someone else had a car made in May that had a 6bolt in it, so it's best to check the oil pan just to be sure.

 

[1g_tsi_awd]

7.8:1 for turbo 1G and 9:1 for 1G non-turbo 4G63s

For the somparison... It was buggin me, so I had to look it up.


If I were you, I would find some 1g pistons and 2g rods, perfect for a street car... If this was going to be a track car, I'd say get some higher compression pistons. They will be more prone to knock, but if you build it right, they have a higher power potential.

But since this is your DD, 1g pistons and 1g rods would be perfect and they wouldn't hit the wallet too hard.

*EDIT: I know most people would say 2g pistons, but this is a DD... So I say 1g pistons, becuase of the fact they'll be bit less prone to knock.*

 

[gringo72884]

the N/A and turbo blocks are the same minus the oil squirters and pistons. The heads are also the same minus the cams. As for a good setup I would get a set of 1g Nippon racing pistons stock 7:8:1 compression. You can find them on ebay for like $150 or less and they stand up to a good amount of abuse. I used them on a past rebuild and made almost 400 hp at the crank. Use these pistons with a set of 1g 6 bolt "big rods"...the ones that come factory installed and throw on some ARP rod bolts and you'll be fine to 450 whp as long as u have a good tune. Hope this helps

 

[Talesin]

Stockers are cast.. forged are a good upgrade if you can afford them and the machine shop fees. If it's in the shop already, may as well get the block machined for the oil squirters... they cool the pistons and help to suppress knock. And they DO make a noticeable difference, when you're tuning the car. You have a wider margin for error, for one.

If you're looking to go to a turbo setup, it'd be cheaper to sell what you've got and buy a turbo DSM. If you got a killer deal on the N/T, sell it on at a profit. A 1G GS-T in decent shape shouldn't run you more than 2K, 2500 if it's in good shape with full documentation. And that's the SoCal price, so it should be even cheaper elsewhere.

Aside from that, the N/T DSMs get good gas mileage, and are less prone to the famed DSM lack of reliability... nice little runabouts, if you can't find something like a Mirage/Summit of the same era.

 

[SnowBird]

I agree that it isnt even worth trying to turbo the N/A. You are better off buying a 1G with a blown engine, or even a turbo shell would probably be cheaper to build then a N/A to turbo swap, it goes so much farther than just the engine.

 

[GODCHSR]

Thanks for all the information everyone.

It is my DD so 450whp is not in the future of this car. I'm looking at stopping around 200whp.

I'll start by purchasing a stock turbo setup and the intake cam. I also have my own tuning equipment so I'm not too concerned about tuning. I will also add Water Meth injection to keep it safe.

After that if I still need more boost to get to my goals then I'll upgrade the pistons... most likely I'll stick with a direct swap from a turbo. That should give me considerably more room to increase boost safely.

 

[Talesin]

Dude, just sell it and buy a 1G turbo DSM. You also have to replace the ECU, hack up the wiring harness to install a knock sensor, and quite a lot of other little bits. The turbo 1Gs START with a stock 195hp at the crank.

It's seriously NOT worth the hassle when you can get one that already has it from the factory with all the extra bits and baseline tuning you need, for the price of the upgrade parts to slap on an NA. I mean, hell. It's just stupid, when dealing with 1Gs, given how cheap they are to buy. Do you even know if it's the 2L NA, or the 1.8L NA?

 

[GODCHSR]

Dude, just sell it and buy a 1G turbo DSM. You also have to replace the ECU, hack up the wiring harness to install a knock sensor, and quite a lot of other little bits. The turbo 1Gs START with a stock 195hp at the crank.

It's seriously NOT worth the hassle when you can get one that already has it from the factory with all the extra bits and baseline tuning you need, for the price of the upgrade parts to slap on an NA. I mean, hell. It's just stupid, when dealing with 1Gs, given how cheap they are to buy. Do you even know if it's the 2L NA, or the 1.8L NA?

hahaha Yes, I am no newbie to mechanics by any means... it is most certainly 2.0 DOHC

I guess I'd have to look at pricing. I guess I assumed they were just expensive. I got this one for $500... I'll consider what you're suggesting.

 

[Dream On]

Also note that the 1g n/t blocks do not have a knock sensor. The hole is there, it just may need tapped for the threads.

 

[GODCHSR]

Well after looking at pricing I am STILL convinced that for qhat I paid for this car it would still be best to hold on to the NA. So I am going to piece things.

I'm not sure if it would be best to run low boost on the high compression to start OR wait to put the turbo on till I have the pistons in hand as well.?.?.?


I'd like to make a comment to critics about swapping. I understand that it is much more simple to simply buy a turbo but for many of us a car just happens to fall into our hands and we do with it what we do... build.

I did not seek out a DSM (no offense to those of you who are DSM fanatics but I prefer Nissan by far) it found me at a good price and I would prefer not to drive my 300ZTT everyday.

Now assuming a person has the time patience then it's not a big deal. I can tune my own chip or use an SAFC to handle the turbo. The wiring harness does NOT need major work, with exception of a knock sensor and even then it is not REQUIRED... just recommended.

I believe that I can build this to 200+ whp for less than $1000. In fact if we care to make this interesting I'll make that my official goal... I will spend less than $1,000 and make this car over 200whp.

 

[Talesin]

And the point being that if you sold on the NA and took that $1K as well, you could just buy a GS-T outright. If you're doing it just to tinker around and learn about the car: hey, cool. If you think that you might possibly be saving ANY amount of money or headache, allow the collective wisdom of all the previous DSMers who have walked down the same road that you're blindly heading toward to possibly redirect you.
Heck, check the Problem Diagnosis forum. You'll find a number of old threads, and at least one current thread ( here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259596 ) devoted to the kind of problems you can expect to run into.

Even if you got the NA for free, you're still going to make a profit reselling it and using that money toward a turbo DSM.

The SAFC will handle fuel alteration. Okay, so there's no knock sensor to automatically retard timing in case of excessive knock, no way to input timing advance to deal with/gain from the increased charge, your FPR and fuel pump will need to be replaced with turbo models to deal with the increased demand, and that's just a start. A wideband O2 will help get the tune proper, but those aren't exactly cheap. You'll have to listen for/guess at knock, and risk blowing the engine to get decent returns on the investment. You'll need a better exhaust to deal with the increased flow. Buying the turbo setup itself isn't going to be that cheap, to begin with. A grand might get you started, but it won't get you to the goal.

Let's do a quick tot-up:
-SAFC ($200)
-WBO2 ($200)
-Fuel pump ($100)
-AFPR ($250 w/install kit)
Leaving a grand total of $250 to secure a complete and good-condition working turbo, intake tract, metering, and exhaust system from a 1G turbo DSM.

Hubris is never far from wasted money.

 

[GODCHSR]

I have a wideband that I use for tuning purposes already and a Moates Chip tuner, so I am NOT worried about tuning... so subtract another $400 off your calculations.

I get your point, trust me, I tell guys the exact same thing ALL the time on the Z32 forums... "Buy it, don't swap it!" But the reality is that if I sell this car I'm buying a different one... 'brand'... not another DSM. I LOATHE the (2G) Eclipse as it is so driving his is borderline hypocritical on my part! If I could find a better car for $500 I would buy it but the best I got in my area is an 88 Mustang for $700 and that's not a DD by any means.

I need a DD and some power is welcomed but I don't NEED a DD with power... I would just hate to pull up on one of million overrated Mitsubishis, Hondas, Acuras, Mustangs or Camaros and not have a decent punch... Trust me I really would love to smoke every one of those cars EVERY day but my Z is hardly a kids play thing.

I am not planning on anything right away, so the $1000 I would have to spend over night on purchasing a new car would be 1K I don't have in budget to spend on a DD. I prefer to spend my budget money on my Z... not a DSM... BUT I can feel comfortable taking small amounts out to buy things piece by piece. That's how I did my Jetta and I have no problem doing it this way either.

And to clear it up... I don't think that I'm being 'Hubris'. I know that these cars have power to be unlocked and I don't have to have it this very second. It's fair for me to assume that I can create a 200whp 1G for less than 1K. That's not 'Hubris' that's confidence.