N/T 4g63 Cams

[nightspeed87]

This is an odd question and dont expect too many to have the answer,
but I heard the N/T cams are different than the 4g63Turbo cams. Well in the 6bolt engine Im about to drop in my car soon; it has N/T cams ( i think from a 91 ) and Im hopeing there isnt an ill effect of doing this, Ive heard the 93 cams are the best yr cams but my 93 cams turned up missing( long story ) Well anyways, so all I have is some n/t 4g63 cams to use. Well the lobes on the n/t cam from comparing actually looked slightly bigger making me think maybe theres more duration to it. But according to a hanes manual Ive read they are no different than the 90 turbo cams ( which suck, less duration ) and then one person told me the n/t cams give more low end torque and another person said they have more overlap ( whatever that means as far as performance ) Therefore just need some opinions on using these.
If theres anything wrong with using them let me know soon before next week so I can take them out real quick and search for some reg. turbo cams. ( Dont have money for any fp or hks 272s yet )
Thanks


( any cam guru's or wisemen maybe.....?????)

 

[Rahdigga8188]

I just posted almost exactly the same question, except for the fact that I am already runin the N/T cams. They arent bad, as I have been running them for 5 months now. The questions I was tryin to figure out was were the turbo ones better performance wise. So to answer your question, yes your car will run with them, and to me my car does feel torquier then my buddy's. good luck.

 

[steve]

From a old thread. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17110

Based on what I can tell from the service manual the 1G 2.0L cams differ as follows: (specifications pages, timing is in one place, lobe height in another)

Intake NT opens 26 BTDC close 46 ABDC lobe height 35.493 (34.993 limit)
Intake MT opens 21 BTDC close 51 ABDC lobe height 35.493 (34.993 limit)
Intake AT opens 21 BTDC close 51 ABDC lobe height 35.200 (34.700 limit)

Exhaust NT opens 55 BBDC close ATDC 9 lobe height 35.200 (34.700 limit)
Exhaust AT opens 55 BBDC close ATDC 9 lobe height 35.200 (34.700 limit)
Exhaust MT opens 55 BBDC close ATDC 9 lobe height 35.493 (34.993 limit)

From this I come up with the NT intake cam being 252 duration, the turbo intake at 257 and a duration of 244 for the exhaust. NT has 35 degrees overlap (26BTDC + 9ATDC) and turbos have 30 (21+9). These are seat timings. From the point where the valve first starts to move.


Steve

 

[nightspeed87]

From a old thread. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17110

Based on what I can tell from the service manual the 1G 2.0L cams differ as follows: (specifications pages, timing is in one place, lobe height in another)

Intake NT opens 26 BTDC close 46 ABDC lobe height 35.493 (34.993 limit)
Intake MT opens 21 BTDC close 51 ABDC lobe height 35.493 (34.993 limit)
Intake AT opens 21 BTDC close 51 ABDC lobe height 35.200 (34.700 limit)

Exhaust NT opens 55 BBDC close ATDC 9 lobe height 35.200 (34.700 limit)
Exhaust AT opens 55 BBDC close ATDC 9 lobe height 35.200 (34.700 limit)
Exhaust MT opens 55 BBDC close ATDC 9 lobe height 35.493 (34.993 limit)

From this I come up with the NT intake cam being 252 duration, the turbo intake at 257 and a duration of 244 for the exhaust. NT has 35 degrees overlap (26BTDC + 9ATDC) and turbos have 30 (21+9). These are seat timings. From the point where the valve first starts to move.


Steve

So according to this, in your opinion what does this exactly mean as far as performance.
When you say duration does that have anything to do with how high your power band is ( i.e. more power at higher rpm ) and overlap. I know what over lap means as far as a mechanical sense of whats going on , but what does more overlap mean in a performance sense, is this good or bad, and to sum it up what are views of using 1g n/t cams on the turbo 1g? What would be effects of even mixing the n/t cam with turbo cam, you say turbo intake cam has more duration, what if a turbo intake was used with n/t exhaust or vice versa or something?

the NT has 35 degrees overlap...everything else looked right. if you increase the overlap to 33 how luch will you suffer from reversion. the main reason they try to limit the overlap is so the high turbo backpressure does not blow the intake charge back up the intake.....then again if your going all out, want top end and have a really well flowing manifold and turbo this would be a good move...btw, thanks for the cam numbers and math.

I pulled this out of that link on cam differences that you left Steve... So n/t cams have more overlap because it doesnt have the turbo backpressure, but add the n/t cams to the turbo motor, and going by what the post said, is there a danger to doing it? ( I have full3in exhaust everything ported by the way if that helps. )

I just posted almost exactly the same question, except for the fact that I am already runin the N/T cams. They arent bad, as I have been running them for 5 months now. The questions I was tryin to figure out was were the turbo ones better performance wise. So to answer your question, yes your car will run with them, and to me my car does feel torquier then my buddy's. good luck.

Ive heard they are more torquey also... But am assuming if the duration/lift isnt as high as the turbo cams meaning the power band will fall on its face quicker after 7000rpm.
But on the contrary if that is the case, I still have a 14b and minimal head upgrades therefore I dont need to revving that high anyways because My engine isnt ready for that yet so these cams actually wouldnt be bad until I upgrade. ( At least from what im getting at so far, need more info though )

 

[Rahdigga8188]

yeah, when I'n on the highway, and I actually take the gears further out, i o kinda feel it fallin off. But that when I get pretty far into the rpm range. During normal driving I rarely go past 6K rpms, and feel no loss before then. I'm runnin 17 lbs and I feel my car pulling up until i shift. But i am very curious about which combination to use, being as I have non turbo cams in now and have 2 sets of turbo cams laying around( from a 90 and a 92). i was gonna try to dyno my car with the n/t cams in and then do the swap, but the shop near me went out of business. Now I feel I should hold off on doing so until I get a better idea of which would be the best combo for me, or should I just wait until i get 264's to swap them out? So confused

 

[nightspeed87]

well i know the 92 cams are better than the 90 cams, the 90 cams have the least lift out of all the years I believe. Have you driven your car with the turbo cams before they were swapped out with n/t cams? If so was there any difference from how it was before ( turbo cams ) to how it feels now. Since you claimed it feels more torquier , but then again I dont know if you were only comparing to your friends car? And when you say on the high way when you take the rpms pretty high up, how high are you talking about, beyond 7k?

Also you noted you wanted 264s, Id say get the 264/272, or if you plan on upgraded further than that
with bigger turbo and etc. get straight 272s...

 

[Raph]

im running nt cams too .. the t25 lost all power after 6000 rpms, the vtrim i have is laggy,but holds boost till 7000 rpm..

so i cant tell if the turbo was the problem or the cams .. around town off boost the car does feel torquey (i always think im in a lower gear)

but this cam discusion has been beaten to death (at least on the german boards) but noone wants to be a guinea pig and try out (dyno) the different cams

im not going to do it either.. i have a sezt of turbo cams (1g) ..maybe in the winter.

isnt the exhaust cam the same?

 

[nightspeed87]

im running nt cams too .. the t25 lost all power after 6000 rpms, the vtrim i have is laggy,but holds boost till 7000 rpm..

so i cant tell if the turbo was the problem or the cams .. around town off boost the car does feel torquey (i always think im in a lower gear)

but this cam discusion has been beaten to death (at least on the german boards) but noone wants to be a guinea pig and try out (dyno) the different cams

im not going to do it either.. i have a sezt of turbo cams (1g) ..maybe in the winter.

isnt the exhaust cam the same?

From what I understand the exhaust cams are the same on all years except 93-94 which has slighty higher lift, and the intake cams have more lift on the turbo cars ( more higher rpm top end power ) but the n/t cams have more over lap ( which I take it as more torque.. ) Which to me would be more preferable at my current needs since I generally wont rev my car beyond 7k anyway, ( thats why I wanted to go stroker ) im not really trying to have an all out race motor.
Well i guess ill be another guinea pig to try the n/t cams since there already in the motor thats about to be dropped in. Curious what if I mitch matched n/t and turbo cams how that effect would be? Like turbo intake, n/t exhaust, or vice versa?

 

[snooopy365]

im running nt cams too .. the t25 lost all power after 6000 rpms, the vtrim i have is laggy,but holds boost till 7000 rpm..

so i cant tell if the turbo was the problem or the cams .. around town off boost the car does feel torquey (i always think im in a lower gear)

but this cam discusion has been beaten to death (at least on the german boards) but noone wants to be a guinea pig and try out (dyno) the different cams

im not going to do it either.. i have a sezt of turbo cams (1g) ..maybe in the winter.

isnt the exhaust cam the same?

I totaly agree with the 6k power loss, my 14B pulls good upto 6000rpm than the game is over.

but will have a new exhaust soon maybe that will help

 

[Rahdigga8188]

i was gonna be a guinea pig , but the shop near me with a dyno went outta business , and now I'm told that if I'm eventually goin aftermarket dont waste my time. No I never had turbo cams in the car. Bought it with a banged up head and just swapped in a cleaned n/t one. When I say up high on the highway I mean a lil above 6k. Around 6k its no longer pulling just kinda goin. And yeah when I talk about tourquier I'm meaning on the butt dyno. First gear is obsolete... I just spool and spin. Second gear i go till full spool then I get torque steer so bad I got pulled over once for reckless driving . And thats if the tires even stay planted. I want AWD

 

[snooopy365]

witch rpm u see boost? I see 7PSI at 2.5k about 14PSI at 3K

 

[Rahdigga8188]

depends on which gears. Im usually shifting in first before I hit full boost and in second and up im at 17lbs by about 3200. But my spool time suck s cause i have a leak between my o2 housing and dp and a broken flex pipe on my dp. before then I had better spool times.. between 3k and 3100. Sound pretty cool though.

 

[Rahdigga8188]

Hey i just checked your profile. Did you turbo the n/t?

 

[Raph]

I totaly agree with the 6k power loss, my 14B pulls good upto 6000rpm than the game is over.

but will have a new exhaust soon maybe that will help

but my new turbo pulls like a mofo and screams like a banshee past 7000 rpm! 3rd gear 60 to 160kmh is awesome!

 

[Raph]

Hey i just checked your profile. Did you turbo the n/t?

yes,he turboed a 4g63 nt 1g(i think snoopy has a turbo bottom end?).. i turboed a 4g63 nt in a 2g ( 9.4 vs 8.8 compression ) its easy.

 

[snooopy365]

yes,he turboed a 4g63 nt 1g(i think snoopy has a turbo bottom end?).. i turboed a 4g63 nt in a 2g ( 9.4 vs 8.8 compression ) its easy.

why do the 2Gs have so low compression?? the 1G NT (Euro) do have 10.4:1!

And yes ## right, I got a VR4 block with eagle rods, wiesco pistons and some other small goodies.

hey raph I hope u take me to a ride with ## car in bitburg (?) thx

 

[nightspeed87]

why do the 2Gs have so low compression?? the 1G NT (Euro) do have 10.4:1!

And yes ## right, I got a VR4 block with eagle rods, wiesco pistons and some other small goodies.

hey raph I hope u take me to a ride with ## car in bitburg (?) thx

Not to bash anyone,
but these post arent making sense? For one, non turbo 2gs dont have 4g63s
they have 420a's ( for the other guy who said he turboed a 4g63 in a 2g ) unless he means he swapped in a 4g63 from a 420a ? But otherwise that doesnt make sense because 2gs with 4g63s come turboed. And ive never heard of any stock 1g n/t with 10:4.1 compression but maybe your right, someone else can verfiy that. Now as far as low compression, on a turbod motor it isnt ideal to have higher compression, if your speaking on a n/t motor then yea it could be considered low, if your squeezing for power. but on a factory car ( at least in the u.s. ) they have to keep it emissions friendly, and reliable for everyday driving and there not putting performance first. For example, stock cars all run rich, not performance minded but safe. So they wouldnt generally put a high comp ratio on a car. Maybe in europe or japan they do ( and thats why some ppl opt to go jdm ) but not here unless its a safe set up still. And retype your post its barely read able,
and lets keep this thread about n/t 4g63 cams not compression ratios.

 

[snooopy365]

@nightspeed87

there is just 1 problem my car is a GERMAN NT so its a 1G with higher compression ration than any US NT and it comes stock with a knock sensor (it also have 150hp stock)

and Raphs 2G is also a German NT so it comes with the 4G63 stock, 141hp or 146hp (deepends on cat) so its usefull to say that. I`m not sure if the Euro NT cams are similare to the US NT cams.

I`m sorry that my post are barely read able... thats the problem I you just learned english at schol for a few years, so try to understand it if yu don`t understand it ... ignore it.

 

[Raph]

Not to bash anyone,
but these post arent making sense? For one, non turbo 2gs dont have 4g63s
they have 420a's ( for the other guy who said he turboed a 4g63 in a 2g ) unless he means he swapped in a 4g63 from a 420a ? But otherwise that doesnt make sense because 2gs with 4g63s come turboed. And ive never heard of any stock 1g n/t with 10:4.1 compression but maybe your right, someone else can verfiy that. Now as far as low compression, on a turbod motor it isnt ideal to have higher compression, if your speaking on a n/t motor then yea it could be considered low, if your squeezing for power. but on a factory car ( at least in the u.s. ) they have to keep it emissions friendly, and reliable for everyday driving and there not putting performance first. For example, stock cars all run rich, not performance minded but safe. So they wouldnt generally put a high comp ratio on a car. Maybe in europe or japan they do ( and thats why some ppl opt to go jdm ) but not here unless its a safe set up still. And retype your post its barely read able,
and lets keep this thread about n/t 4g63 cams not compression ratios.

its all in the profile dude,old pics, but its a 4g63 nt in a 2g.. europe didnt get the 420a ..for what..well because we didnt need it ..seriously, chrysler didnt sell cars here at that time so mitsu just built the 2g with the 4g63 period.

edit @snoopy.. im pushing 12 sometimes 14psi on the nt..stock bottom end.. sweet !

try that in a 420a (no offense to 420a guys)