Newbie ForumBeginner/newbie/general DSM questions. first mods, how to run 10's when you haven't run 12's yet, any tech question that doesn't fit in another tech forum. New Members must limit their tech posts to this forum and sub-forums.
I am trying to decide on which kit i should go with i know the water/meth kit allows me to run high boost but does it help with spool up? Now i know nitrous helps with spool up but does it help with high boost? Can i run both? Or does both mean a explosition of my motor? Can someone try pointing me in the right direction.
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water alcohol is a good way to go. i dont belive in nitrous and it is bad for a turbo car if is not set up for nitrous. me i would rather do other bolt on and upgrades to get a quicker spool.what kinda set up are you running that is what it depends on.
I'm currently running 680cc injectors,front mount, 20g turbo w/38mm wastegate,super afc 2,255 fuel pump and a fpr. but i plan on upgrading to a gt35r with cams, and a magnus intake manifold. The reason I'm asking the gt35r turbo takes a while to spool and it likes high boost. So i'm trying to go the best way with pump gas and the most boost/timing.
If your running nitrous its best, well actually REQUIRED to have forged interals such as rods and pistons. If you don't your engine will poop before you know it. I know a few people who run water injection kit. One its cheap (you buy washer fluid) and the kit from cooling mist is like $200 plus. But you dontneed such an elaborate one. It can be done for cheaper.
So nitrous would be better as long as my motor can handle it?Can I run high boost on pump gas with nitrous?I like the idea of the water injection but i heard it does nothing for spooling, and ther gt35r sucks at spooling
i read on the forums that nitrous does what water injection does ....soak up hot air molecules while igniting....water injection just soaks up hot air molecules and does a better job at it which is great....but is it possible to run meth injec. with nitrous at same time since nitrous can also bring engine temp up..... I'm not asking if you like nitrous or not .....
ok then i think i'll just use the nitrous. using both sounds like a pain in the butt to tune...lol...what size shot do u guys recommend to help spool up and run high boost? And is it true the nitrous eliminates turbo lag completey?
You start with the smallest shot and work your way up. If you have stock internal stay with the 50 shot which is the smallest shot most kits come with unless you order smaller jets. There will be almost no spool time (you will be hard pressed to even notice any) and the power comes on hard.
Good luck and by a good kit and be careful.
Just remember when you hitting the juice that you have to have some way to retard the timing to make it work efficiently or you will get all kinds of knock
why do i need sumthing to retard timing? i thought if i sprayed a 50 shot threw it, it'll cool the intake charge for more boost cause of reduction of knock and almost eliminate turbo lag?
If your running nitrous its best, well actually REQUIRED to have forged interals such as rods and pistons. If you don't your engine will poop before you know it.[QUOTE]
that's the dumbest thing I have read this am. There is lot of bad info here in this thread you don't have to have forged internals to run nitrous
Methanol is by far more cost effective and will allow for high boost and high timing on 93 octane. Any time you can make pump gas act like race gas, it's a worthwhile investment.
The best kits are the ones that can handle straight methanol as it has much better detonation suppression properties than water alone or winshield washer fluid. The turbo Buick crowd has been swearing by these for years for a good reason.
When is your car ready for water injection....I've talk to sum people that are running high 11's yet they don't use it.....does it depend on the person....is water injection a must have mod for serious tuners....can i run water injection with just first stage mods..??
Seriously listen to what Andy has to say, take his words to heart. You are going about this all wrong. Yes, n2o quickens spool time, but you need to be properly tuned in to each setting(jet size), all n2o does is provide more oxygen in the combustion chamber allowing for more fuel(wet shot for turbo'd motors), and in effect more power. If you are just doing the n-tercooler kit by nx or an alike product then your wasting your $$$ cause all that does is cool the air in the intercooler, and make it cooler and more dense going into the combustion chamber. If you are going to use a GT35R, then I suggest snow performance's water/meth injection, and get the largest tank they have, if its a DD or weekend warrior on the street, go check out SBR...www.slowboyracing.com, go to the engine section, go to stroker, and get their stage 1, it will allow the GT to spool fully around 4,200rpm, give or take some. I say this because your engine will now be built, and you can have "race gas" all the time, and the GT can sit at a comfortable boost level...28psi. The boost level is why the n2o isnt a good idea and the stroker is better, because your stock cast internals will not take it. Also I hope you know that with the GT you will have to upgrade your injectors to 720s, and that means a DSMLink plus a logger, because the SAFC wont be as presise at tuning with injectors above 660s, and the 720s are a good start but since you would be getting the Link I would go 850s, so your IDC is lower, and allows for more tuning room to work with. Also I cant justify spending 420$ on an n20 kit(n-tercooler by nx) plus the cost of refilling it, when you can spend 200$ or so and get a water/meth injectoin kit, and either pay a little for meth and free water, or just meth. go check out the stroker section in the short block forum, you can look through the posts but you cant post because your not a proven member yet, but its very helpful info, and it may just help you see the light, and power gaining capabilities of strokers with monster turbo's.
EDIT: Also I have never heard these claims that meth injection increases turbo lag...meth injection ups the octane count of pump gas to nearing pure race gas, about 102-104 with straight meth and 93. If this were the case no one would use race gas. Also it absorbs the heat in the intake mani, so it lowers intake temp dramaticly, providing cooler more dense air which equals more boost in the end, and with cooler air no knock, unless something is extremely out of wack, and that inturn helps keep your motor healthy, and strong.
EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention is that meth injectoin helps keep your IM clean, and cleans out carbon build up, thats one more plus to meth injection, n2o doesn't do that, and I just want to tell you that I am not against n2o just in this case there is a smarter way of going about it, and I think if it is gone about properly then n2o is a great mod to your car. And yes sheps car does 7s w/o n2o but have you seen his built motor, and how much boost he's running? Last I looked it was at 55psi, and Im pretty sure that was with a 100 shot of n2o, so Im sure he upped the boost a bit.
Dustin
____________________________
-Dustin-
92 TSi
92 TSi AWD *Dark Star*
Methanol is by far more cost effective and will allow for high boost and high timing on 93 octane. Any time you can make pump gas act like race gas, it's a worthwhile investment.
The best kits are the ones that can handle straight methanol as it has much better detonation suppression properties than water alone or winshield washer fluid. The turbo Buick crowd has been swearing by these for years for a good reason.
Just my .02,
Andy
yup a buddy of mine has been pushing me to install a meth kit on my lightning but its broke right now so its kindaa mute point. but as for kits . anderson ford performance has a kit that requires no pump or electrical connections. this allows you run a higher meth % over the other kits due to not having a costly pump to worry about...
Oh yeah one more little thing, please up date you profile with such stuff as car, mods, ect... This will allow for people to help you much more efficiently with future problems. Thank you
Dustin
____________________________
-Dustin-
92 TSi
92 TSi AWD *Dark Star*
yea but i'm trying to emlinate turbo lag and run high boost on pump gas and i heard the meth increased turbo lag
From a strictly logical point, this would be true, but there's other things you can do to increase the spool rate on a turbo. Using a BB unit certainly helps as does leaning the A/F at the onset of boost (something I'm experimenting with now to reduce spool on my 50 trim). If you have cams, using adjustable gears to advance the intake cam will also do wonders for spool.
The fact of the matter is that you actually want lower temps in the combustion chamber to run more timing and boost and there are strategies you can use to effect the spool characteristics. If I had the choice between running 25 psi and spooling at 3500 or runniing 30 psi and spooling at 3800, I'll take more boost a bit later every day and twice on Sunday.
There's always a compromise involved, but with the right tuning tools and some knowledge, it's not that hard to reach a happy medium.
Also it absorbs the heat in the intake mani, so it lowers intake temp dramaticly
If the air charge in the intake is cooler and the combustion temps are lower, then it follows that exhaust temps would be lower as well. Exhaust heat is what makes a turbo spool and the more heat you can safely create, the faster it will come on line.
Having never personally used methanol injection on a turbo car (I've run it on a supercharged Mustang) I can't vouch for whether it does slow spool and by how much. You can always look at EGT with methanol on and off and record spool, but chances are the difference would be negligible.
If the air charge in the intake is cooler and the combustion temps are lower, then it follows that exhaust temps would be lower as well. Exhaust heat is what makes a turbo spool and the more heat you can safely create, the faster it will come on line.
Having never personally used methanol injection on a turbo car (I've run it on a supercharged Mustang) I can't vouch for whether it does slow spool and by how much. You can always look at EGT with methanol on and off and record spool, but chances are the difference would be negligible.
Yes, I see what you are saying, but with cooler intake charge, then the air is more dense thus allowing more air into the combustion chamber...would this not aid in turbo spool? Yes I get that the EGTs would be lower, thus causing them to move slowerbut with the added air coming through wouldn't that be voided out?
Dustin
____________________________
-Dustin-
92 TSi
92 TSi AWD *Dark Star*
If you think about it, two things related to exhaust temperatre help create faster spool (these are not the only two things, but we'll confine it to these for the purposes of this discussion)
1. Additional heat from running leaner A/F's
2. Lower timing
Typically, with a methanol injection setup, you'd run MORE timing and leaner A/F's. If we treated this as a hypothetical model, the effect is that one heats the exhaust charge while the other doesn't. Run a motor with higher timing and look at the EGT's in the presence of adequate fuel and absence of knock. They go DOWN. That's why the tuners who run low timing like I do run forged internals to handle the heat.
At this point, the entire discussion is hypothetical. Who cares if methanol injection slows spool by a small amount? The fact of the matter is you can run much more boost and lean the A/F's for greater performance. The end result is what matters the most, not whether spool was affected by a few hundred RPM (if it was at all).
At least with my experience with a gt30r turbo water/meth dosen't really help or hurt spooll. With the gt30 and 35r turbos boost is pretty much all or nothing-once you hit 10psi 30psi is at most half a second later. However since it does let you be alot more aggressive with your tuning, its possible you can do a better job of tuning for quick spool using it. Nitrous is great for the track, but nowhere as user friendly on the street with daily driving and constant on and off boosting.
At least with my experience with a gt30r turbo water/meth dosen't really help or hurt spooll. With the gt30 and 35r turbos boost is pretty much all or nothing-once you hit 10psi 30psi is at most half a second later. However since it does let you be alot more aggressive with your tuning, its possible you can do a better job of tuning for quick spool using it. Nitrous is great for the track, but nowhere as user friendly on the street with daily driving and constant on and off boosting.
Makes perfect sense. Thanks for posting some real world experiences since hypothesizing is a pain in the ass.
No worries Dustin. As a "non-engineering" type, I often struggle with things like this. I know the effect, but sometimes I struggle to explain the cause. I'd love to see someone with intimate engineering knowledge get a hold of this and really let loose. All I can do is analyze based on what I know to be in terms of basic principles and hope that it holds up from a theoretical standpoint based on what "should" make sense.
Water/Meth kit or nitrous???
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