[RESOLVED] How to check timing with out a timing light?

[93 Eagle Talon TSi]

ive been having problems with my car and it wont idle and wondering how to check the timing, there are 2 notches on the cam gears on each cam gear and dont know how to check it with it like this.

[My1GLaser]

You use a timing light to check ignition timing. That's when the plugs fire in relation to where the crank is in its rotation. http://vfaq.com/mods/wayback/BradBauer/misc/tim-l.html

You check the cam timing by lining up the timing marks and verifying they all line up. Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED) Figure 11 specifically. Make sure the dowel pins are at 12 o'clock and line up the cam sprocket marks and check the crank pulley mark. You won't be able to see your crank sprocket with the crank pulley in place like in Fig 12. There is a timing mark on the crank pulley and a "T" mark on the lower timing cover. It should line up when the cams line up.

I've never had a DSM be off by one tooth, but I would imagine that you could visually tell by the crank pulley mark even without seeing the crank sprocket. Enough to know if you need to dig a little deeper and take the pulley & accessory belts off.

[pauleyman]

To expand on the above there is mechanical timing which is what you seem to be referring to with the cam gears. This is the mechanical relationship of the crank to the cams via the belt. Ignition timing is what you need a timing light for and that is the relation ship to when the spark fires vs crank position. Two entirely different things. You do not need a timing light to check mechanical timing but you do to check ignition timing.

[93 Eagle Talon TSi]

well my car seems to idle fine but doesnt rev up, but if i hold it all the way open it will rev up a little after a while but very slowly and only goes like to 4k and thats it and if i plug in my maf the car will die right away so im wondering if this is my problem, and theres a rubbler hose that comes off the intake manifold and goes in to the valve cover and if its connected it wont start and dies if i hook it up while on so i keep it un hooked so im wondering if this is my problem also

[pauleyman]

There are 100 different reasons for what you describe. I'd check mechanical timing. Are there any check engine codes? If so what are they? You're not providing much information. The reason a car might change idle or idle at all without a maf is the ecu is designed to make certain assumptions rather than just shut down if the maf isn't there or malfunctions. Now then...more info please. What have you checked?

[93 Eagle Talon TSi]

i havent check if my check engine light is on because ive been just starting the car and messing with the hoses to see if there somthing hooked up right so i will check tomarrow if its on. i think my maf is bad but i dont see how that would keep me from reving up because its just hooked up to the cold side of my turbo and my bov. and when is my wastegate suppose to work because ive never seen it move. im also low on gas like at the empty but it still runs like there still enough gas. and ive never messed with my tps, so if i messed with that could that help

[pauleyman]

All you have to do for check engine is turn the key on. If the light stays on after ecu bootup you have a CEL and you need to check it. You likely have at least one for running with no maf.

I doubt your maf is bad. The car changes running conditions for the reasons I've described. I've never seen one go bad. I've seen them get broken by people trying to modify them but not go bad. Possible but not likely given your description.

Wastegate actuates to control boost when the pressure exceeds the spring and diaphragm. More if you have a controller changing what that spring and diaphragm sees. You likely won't ever seen it move just free revving. There isn't enough load to build up full boost typically.

If you haven't messed with TPS then don't. Go after the basics first. Spark, mechanical timing, possible CELs etc. If it needs gas put some in it. Can't drive it? They make cans and you can make more than one trip.

[93 Eagle Talon TSi]

i know how to check for cel but ive just been reaching in my window and turning it on and going to the engine and messing with it im not sitting in the car. so i will check if its on and get it scanned if its on. and my maf isnt modified unless the guy i bought it from a week ago did but if i unplug it before i start it and the plug it in while running it will shut down instantly. so i will see what it does tomarrow

[DSM1G90]

Take it to someone who knows what to do before you mess things up more.

It's obvious that you're unfamilar with the operations of a DSM setup and best let the experienced handle your issues.

Good luck - DSM

[95eclispe]

Originally Posted by DSM1G90

Take it to someone who knows what to do before you mess things up more.

It's obvious that you're unfamilar with the operations of a DSM setup and best let the experienced handle your issues.

Good luck - DSM

=1!
I think you should research and learn everything there is to know about your car. especially since your running boost which is a whole diff topic in itself. learn how your car moves and what makes it move before you just start ripping things out your engine bay. Im sure ppl on here have excellent advice but they wont be the ones turning wrenches and pulling parts off you are so just be careful to not cause any further problems. I would go take it to get looked at or get more info on what the issue could be! (symptoms,warnings,signs,etc)

[93 Eagle Talon TSi]

i cant even drive it so how do you expect to get it there or spend $80 on a tow when if its the maf or the ecu and i can replace it myself. i know a little bit about dsms and im trying to see if the timming marks are in the right place but i wouldnt think that if it runs on it own but wont rev theres somthing more wrong it because i had a car i was working with and the timming was off and wouldnt stay started but would rev up and trying to see if you guy could give me an idea before i spend hundreds of dollars to tell me its somthing stupid that you guys could tell me. i have a shop put i cant take it there untill the september so im trying to see if i can fix it while i have nothing better to do. but thanks anyways

[bryanwheat]

If you want to know if the timing marks are lined up than pull the lower timing cover and check it out. After that check for codes. Short of doing that you are going to need to have a professional do some diagnosing on it like stated earlier.

[LOLVTEC]

Well you need to fix that code, like you said you don't want to spend a lot of money on something that might not be an issue. Fix the code.

[DSM1G90]

and theres a rubbler hose that comes off the intake manifold and goes in to the valve cover and if its connected it wont start

Called a vacuum hose that is hooked up to your PCV valve and the motor WILL die, or not run when you disconnect that hose from the valve..

Odd that it does the opposite - run with it off since the intake manifold is pulling in fresh air through the hose killing the idle mixture.

I rarely seen MAF's go bad, but if a code is present, I bet that the driver associated with that sensor has opened up in the ECU which calls for an ECU rebuild or replacement.

[93 Eagle Talon TSi]

Originally Posted by DSM1G90

Called a vacuum hose that is hooked up to your PCV valve and the motor WILL die, or not run when you disconnect that hose from the valve..

Odd that it does the opposite - run with it off since the intake manifold is pulling in fresh air through the hose killing the idle mixture.
replacement.

thats why im confused i thought that it was supposed to run when its hooked up and not run when disconnected, didnt know if it was making me have vaccuum leak bad, and i put a new pcv valve on and it did the same thing, sorry for just saying in a rubber hose to from the intake to the valve cover couldnt think what it was called at the time. im going to check it out tomarrow and check the if there are codes and if the ecu was messed with or burning or damaged.

well figured out why it wouldnt rev up. the guy before me caped the maf plastic tube that comes off the cold side of the turbo and blocked off the bov port that goes to the maf tube in the picture and i tooked it off when i first got it and just today thaough i wiould try and do what he did and it worked and the vacuum tube that goes to the pcv had to be connected to run so ever thing is good now, i just need exhaust

[DSM1G90]

Called the bypass hose that returns back pressure to the intake via the BOV valve when the throttle plate gets suddenly closed on boost.

Guy before wanted to blow up the turbo and the intake system doing this stupid trick. Just bothers me when someone does a stupid mod like this when they don't know what they're doing...and the next person getting this sloppy modded vehicle has to pay for the 'eff-ups'.

People like this needs to be demoted to drive NT sedan cars.

-DSM

[93 Eagle Talon TSi]

Originally Posted by DSM1G90

Called the bypass hose that returns back pressure to the intake via the BOV valve when the throttle plate gets suddenly closed on boost.

Guy before wanted to blow up the turbo and the intake system doing this stupid trick. Just bothers me when someone does a stupid mod like this when they don't know what they're doing...and the next person getting this sloppy modded vehicle has to pay for the 'eff-ups'.

People like this needs to be demoted to drive NT sedan cars.

-DSM

lol. is there a way to fix this.

[boricua86]

You wouldn't want anything pushing the pressure from the bov into the intake. O.o