Is there anything stopping a 1g from handling well?

[tylerdurden801]

OK, I recently picked up a 93 TSi and definitely will be doing the MBC/TBE/UICP mods, but that'll probably be it for engine work. Suspension mods are probably more urgently needed on this platform, so I've been researching my options. FYI, my last car was a modded CRX, and while it wasn't fast it handled incredibly well. That's kinda my benchmark here.

I know the 1g isn't as great a platfrom as the 2g due to the strut type front suspension, but there are many good handling cars that utilize a strut setup. I'm trying to find out why I couldn't make a 1g handle well.

I know some of the things a 1g owner fights: too little travel in front, poor spring rates, poor camber curve in front, and kinda dinky rear sway. So to counteract these shortcomings, I've planned a setup. Up front, GC coilovers (probably 350/350 or 400/350 as this is a mostly street car) paired with Yellows up front (shorter body for more travel), GC upper mounts (more travel again) and camber plates to dial in some static negative camber (a little less than 2 degrees should be a good street compromise). In back, GC's with AGX's (really couldn't stand the Yellows in back since they aren't adjustable on the car) with camber at about 1 degree negative, maybe slightly less.

I wouldn't upgrade the rear sway unless I found it necessary after I'd dialed the car in with this setup. From what I know you don't want to be picking up drive wheels in corners, and DSM's have four of them. I'm not sure if the RM sways lead to inside rear pick up or not, though. I'd like to see if I could balance the car with springrates.

Alignment is always important, and I'd really like to use at least some toe out up front to get nice turn-in (whether or not it makes the car faster, good turn in improves the handling "feel"), probably somewhere in the 1/32-1/16 range to keep tire wear ok (I ran 1/8 on my CRX and it turned in like no car I've ever driven, but I think that setting on a much heavier car like a DSM would lead to some nasty tire wear). Zero toe out back of course.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but can any of the suspension gurus tell me anything I'm missing in this setup? It looks good on paper and is $400 less than JIC's. Are there any other tricks to make a 1g handle well? I'm not too worried about the rear toe eliminator kits at this point, as there are other cars that handle very well that also have these types of systems. Thanks.

 

[Morphius]

PM GRNDSM. He's an avid autocrosser. I'm sure he'd be happy to give some advice.

But before you do, make an effort to search the threads.

 

[jtmcinder]

The problem is the front bump-camber curve. It isn't steep enough. So you must dial in a ton of static camber to get rid of the understeer and this hurts the straight-ahead launch and acceleration. Forces you to get Quaifes in the front and center. But given $3000 for good camber plates and the two Quaifes and it'll be OK.

- Jtoby

 

[GRNDSM]

Negative front camber will help you a lot, but so will rear sway bar upgrade! I can honestly say that my car has TOO MUCH oversteer!

As for handling in general. Unfortunately, we no longer have DSM AutoX to compare cars against each other, but I firmly believe that modified to extremes, 1G’s handle just as good as 2G’s.

The best example that I can give you was when I took Evolution Driving school. My car set the fastest time of the day by .2 sec on a 35 sec course. Second best time was set by a heavily modified NSX on better race tires than what I had. Both times were set by the same instructor who was actually more used to driving RWD cars. So he was slightly out of his domain driving my car. Other cars on race tires that day were: Mazda Miata and a bunch of Audi A4's, but those were almost 1 sec behind my car and NSX.

And you can’t say that this was a driver, as Evolution Driving School has a professional instructor drive your car for you and comment on its handling.

Leon
RR

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
... but I firmly believe that modified to extremes, 1G’s handle just as good as 2G’s.

Leon, I love you, man, but, please, ship some of what you're smoking to me ASAP.

- Jtoby

 

[tylerdurden801]

Well, I guess my response now is: Is this more of a theoretical limitation or one that I will certainly be smacking my head against? Is the platform doomed by this limitation? Should I even waste my time and money?

I really doubt I will be a competetive driver (at least not for a loooooong time), so what I'm looking to get is a fairly neutral car with fairly high levels of grip, not a nationally competetive car. I of course know the importance of tires, but will my theoretical setup work well? Should I just scrounge up the money for JIC's? Will I need a bigger rear sway to have a neutral car?

 

[jtmcinder]

Don't over-read my comments. Yes, there are limitations to struts (some of which cannot be fixed by camber/caster plates), but these limitations will not be the real problem unless you are a very good driver. Put another way: I'm in a 2G that is pretty well set up, but I'm sure that there are lots of people in 1Gs who can kick my tush, since I could not keep up with one 1G at the biggest event I went to last year. In fact, one of the few DSMs that has been run at the national level in autoXing is a 1G.

I was mostly yanking Leon's chain.

- Jtoby

 

[NDgsx]

Up front I think the issues were covered, the camber does not change enough to counteract body roll.

Out back you also have to keep in mind that we have a semi-trailing arm multilink suspension. That means that the toe changes with travel, take a look at an E36 3 series for a more easy to see example of this.
Then there is that stupid compliance steer toe link on the trailing arm, get rid of it. Aside from making the back end toe in under cornering and increasing understeer it makes the car somewhat unpredictable.

I don't like the idea of balancing a cars handling with spring rates, that's the job of swaybars. Use spring rates to limit suspension travel to keep your wheel alignment in the desired range and get the natural frequency you want.

My car is pretty neutral right now. It also does just fine as far as cornerning speed. At the last track day I went to in Spokane (btw if you've never been to their FATT days you should go, it's a fun track) I was running with stuff that's in my profile. 0 toe front and rear, -.6 degrees of camber up front and -1.5 degrees out back (yes I know I need more static negative camber up front). I staid with a Z06 in the tight section of the track and staid ahead of an S2000 on pilot sport cups for 4 laps before I took my cool down. 1Gs are very underestimated.

 

[Todd TCE]

Bear in mind that a lot of this was out the window when folks put on 'mega lowering' springs too. The roll centers were not calculated to work with this ride height and the angles as such are way out of whack now for track use....You're starting all over again with limited choices for adjustment.

 

[jtmcinder]

Cool. Some good discussion.

Sam Strano, for example, would agree with ND that springs should be as soft as possible and that weight transfer should be controlled using sway bars. His suggestion for AWD 2Gs was 350/350 with massive bars that would have to be custom-made. But Sam is a RWD guy. I lean more towards using springs - at least on a 2G - for two reasons: we are rather limited in our sway-bar options, and I do not want to lift a wheel off the ground under any circumstances. Even a Quaife can't help you once a wheel is off the ground. And that's the key difference between springs and bars: springs are one wheel at a time; bars are one end of the car at a time.

Of course, I'm an autoXer, not a road racer.

- Jtoby

 

[tylerdurden801]

Wow, I'm glad this thread has picked up. I'm actually in Spokane (directed to NDgsx), but I don't know what this FATT track is. Ironically, three days before my first autocross my CRX was nearly totaled. It was right before "Octocross" which takes place on a much bigger course than normal at SRP.

I've heard some differing opinions regarding the rear toe elimination. I know quite a few cars use a similar system (most double wishbone Honda's and Acura's) and don't need to be rid of it to handle well. I guess there's no harm in it, and may obviate the need to get a bigger rear sway.

I'm intrigued that you would rather balance the car with sways than springs. The reason I would've picked springs is because they're cheaper, have more fine tuning options (springs can be ordered in 25lb increments), and most importantly won't result in wheel pickup. It's my understanding that lifting a drivewheel (and they're all driving on a DSM) can be very hard on a differential, especially considering the rear is a limited slip type (and the rear is the most likely to pickup).

Any new input or answers are gladly appreciated.

 

[90DSMTurboFWD]

I am also looking into a new suspension setup and I got a couple questions. Where can you get the GC upper mounts and camber plates? Also when you purchase the coil-overs do you just buy the set that is made for koni's or did you plan to mix and match

 

[GRNDSM]

I would highly recommend staying away from GC camper plates!!! They have very nice needle thrust bearings, which are EXPOSED to the sand!

When I talked to them about those bearings, they told me that they are intended for track use only and should be replaced once/year (after track use)…

But this was 5 years ago, so please correct me if they changed the design…

Check around, there are companies what use just a large pivot bearing, which is also exposed to the elements, but those bearings are much more robust and can take much more abuse.

Todd, brings up a good point, way too many people lower their cars too much and up driving around on the bump stops! You MUST get shorter strut suspension (like JIC, Tein or the old Shockteks) if you wan to effectively lower 1G. Way too many people get AGX/GC combo and end up with worse handling (at extremes of strut travel) due to running too low!

This problem is not unique to 1G’s, but 2G’s seem to have more choices. Still, there are plenty of 2G’s with the same problem.


Leon
RR

 

[jtmcinder]

As Leon said, 2Gs have more choices, including shortened Konis, but we have another problem when you lower too much, which was mentioned by Todd. The front roll center drops faster than the rear. There's been some argument on various lists as to whether the front actually goes all the way to being below ground level (I say that it does and just about everyone else says it doesn't), but everyone agrees that it drops more than the rear when you lower the car. So now your instantaneous weight transfer is all in the rear and the delayed (i.e., shock-controlled) weight transfer is more in the front. This can cause the car to turn in nicely, head towards the apex, and then not hold the turn. This can be annoying at the least and downright disconcerting at the worst. Lifting after apex is awful. Some extra rear toe out helps guard against all this, but this also kills the tires on the street. Pre-turning to load the outside even earlier before the turn was the only answer for me.

Another answer, I should note, according to one person, is to crank the front spring rates through the roof (e.g., 900/400) and basically have the rear end just drag around behind you. But I enjoy the car being loose, so I've stayed closer to RRE-suggested rates, as have most people I know in 2Gs.

Another issue that doesn't get mentioned often is the problem that is caused by having a lateral control arm angle up from the chassis to the wheel. Such an arrangement causes any inwards side-force on the wheel to push the car down, which adds roll in a turn. You really don't want this, either.

For all these reasons, most people who are serious about handling don't drop a 2G by more than 1.5".

- Jtoby

 

[tylerdurden801]

You mention Tein makes a shortened shock suspension for 1g's, the only one I know of currently are the SS (I think?) that were just developed and not exactly ready for sale yet. Is that what you were referring to?

 

[90DSMTurboFWD]

Where did you guys plan to purchase your GC camber plates from? I searched the internet last night and wasn't able to come up with any online stores, just how-to's on the instal.

 

[tylerdurden801]

www.ground-control.com

Call them up.

 

[GRNDSM]

Originally posted by 90DSMTurboFWD
I searched the internet last night and wasn't able to come up with any online stores, just how-to's on the instal.

You almost make it sound like it is a bad thing . Seriously, DO NOT USE those on a street car!

Leon
RR

 

[90DSMTurboFWD]

For 300 you might be right, however what do you suggest for a street car? Controlled camber would really help out with the street driving I do.

 

[NDgsx]

Well that's my thought to a point. Obviously if you are lifting a wheel you need to back off the roll stiffness at that end of the car. At that point I would back off with the swaybar.

Todd's point about suspension geometry is very important as well. This is so overlooked by everyone. This is also the reason why my car isn't lowered more than an inch. I'm not to enthusiastic about re-engineering all my suspension attachment points.

When I used to run GC plates two years ago I didn't have the needle bearing problem (granted I used them for 7 months), but I did bend one plate.

The FATT days are basically a test n tune road course day. 8am-4pm, open run groups. It's the first friday of every month. I'll be doing at least a couple of them this season.

 

[GRNDSM]

Originally posted by 90DSMTurboFWD
For 300 you might be right, however what do you suggest for a street car? Controlled camber would really help out with the street driving I do.

People use to run Tein plates, which were only $200. They didn't have caster adjustment, but if you consider how cheesy GC's caster adjustmet is, you may just as well slot holes on Tein camber plates and have the same caster adjustment .

The thing is that I haven't seen Tein camber plates for sale lately...

Leon
RR

 

[90DSMTurboFWD]

Those are going to be even harder to find... Not really looking for the caster adjustment, just camber.

 

[n2o4fun]

Originally posted by 90DSMTurboFWD
Those are going to be even harder to find... Not really looking for the caster adjustment, just camber.

FYI. Caster in a 1G is your best friend. Call Whiteline in AUS and order some Front Caster bushings for a GVR4. Best $50 you'll spend.

 

[90DSMTurboFWD]

Yeah I think Tein stopped making them for the 1g. i went down to a local dealer and he said they dont have them. Any other ideas?

 

[NDgsx]

RRE has their own plates, although the one car I have seen them on had spring bind issues, leading me to believe the bearings aren't very good.
You can get plates from JIC.