Adjusting front camber without new alignment?

[Wobble]

I finished putting on my Tein Springs, which dropped my car about 1" obviousley i need to adjust my camber..

the back will be no prob, just some longer bolts and some washers and ill be set..

but what about the front?

I know the best thing is to take it and get it aligned.. but the thing is before too long im gonna be putting in a full energy suspension urithane bushing kit and replacing my tie rod ends... which will require an alignment for sure.. so i dont want to have it aligned TWICE.. but it will be about a month or so before i get the other stuff on.. I know i should have waited and done it all at once but one of my springs was starting to sag and it drove me nutts..

so how do you adjust the front camber anyway? I dobut i need a kit with only 1" of drop and i would think my toe in and out is ok (doesent exibit any of the probs associated with bad toe) I just want to know what you adjust to bring the camber in and out.. with a level and some good eyeballing I think i can set it good enough so i dont have to worry about killing my tires in the next month of normal driving.


ideas?

 

[turbohappy]

You can't...unless you buy a kit.

 

[Wobble]

how does the alignment shop adjust the front then?

 

[turbohappy]

They don't. They'll adjust the toe. If your toe is dead-on, a 1" drop won't cause much more tire wear. If your toe is wrong, it will eat your tires quickly.

 

[Wobble]

if the alignment shop doesent adjust camber.. then why do people always recommend getting one after putting on springs that lower the car? springs dont screw up the Toe do they (mine dont seem to have)

I dont get it.. everybody gets an alignment after springs.. but the one things that springs do to your alignment (change camber) is not gonna be fixed by an alignment shop?>? makes no damn sense whatsoever..

 

[turbohappy]

Yes, springs do affect the toe.

 

[Wobble]

How?

this is really starting to piss me off, before I ordered these gaddamn springs I aksed if I would need a camber kit for just 1" drop and every body said "no" now im finding i need an aligment, goddamn camber kit.. and all this extra BS, this is turning into a big effing waste of money, considering i will have to do ALL this sh!t again in a month when i do my bushings an tierod ends..


so, what the hell do I need NOW to not ruin my tires within a month.. and stupid ideas like getting them rotated every day are not a viable option.

where can i get a front camber kit cheap? i dont need one for the back, can make my own (VFAQ) but if im gonna have to throw away more cash what is a CHEAP kit for the front.. and dont give me the whole "pay to play" OR "performance costs" gaebage ive heard enough of that crap in my life already and i dont think i need advice on what i can and cant afford.

just some ideas please, this is frustrating.

 

[turbohappy]

There are a lot of forces in your suspension, making it much better than a strut suspension, but more complicated. I can explain in detail how it affects your toe if you would like, but you can trust me that it does.

Simple answer - you DON'T need a camber kit. Your amount of camber isn't too much, hell it may still be within spec, I'm not for sure. Your tires will barely notice the difference. But you DO need an alignment to fix the toe. Bad toe wears tires like crazy and is often mis-diagnosed as camber wear.

 

[Wobble]

well, thanks for the help, im just frustrated..

I figured when i was done modding the engine that the bulk of the expensive crap was past.. but with these cars it seems that verything you unleashes hidden costs... if you do this.. you must do that. and that... this is cheap.. but THAT isnt.. etcetc..

as far as the camber.. its visible with the naked eye.. but not HORRIBLE or anything.. so ill take yer word and just get it aligned i guess.

 

[Cirus_93TSI]

people say take it to get alligned because many full coilover suspension kits come with camber plates, but thats full suspension kits, not just add-on ciolovers or springs, that way u can just take it to an alignment shop after u install it and tell them that ur camber is adjustable as well as the toe and they will do both, but even getting an alignment without being able to addjust the camber will extend the life or ur tires, and that 2 weeks extra before they go bad might make all the difference if ur car is a daily driver
i suggest u invest in a camber kit before u get the tie rod ends installed, thay dont cost that much, just try not to drive it too hard or too much untill u get the camber addjusted, if u go around spinning wheeles u will blow one of ur front tires within a month, ill bet that by the time u get to the tie rods in 2 months u will be in need of 2 new tires no matter how softly u drive it, so u should probally plan on getting them ahead of time so there are no financial supprises to throw ur plans off track

 

[Cirus_93TSI]

and honestly, if u have a really good eye u can adjust the camber urself, my friends integra's camber was so off it ate 5 or 6 tires in 1 month, we installed the camber kit and just kept looking at the wheels with the car in the air and making small addjustments to both camber and toe, between the 3 of us we we got them straight anough that the tires lasted 5 months untill he wrecked the car and were hardly worn at all, and the tire wear was almost perfectly even across the tire
and i replaced my tire rod ends 2 weeks ago and it didnt affect my alignment at all, my car still goes straight when i let go of the wheel and we didnt make any adjustments to the toe, if u get an alignment now and are going to install the tie rods and camber kit urself u can probally get it good enough that u wolnt need another alignment, as long as u or someone u know has a good eye for these type of things

 

[Wobble]

Your amount of camber isn't too much, hell it may still be within spec, I'm not for sure. Your tires will barely notice the difference

bet that by the time u get to the tie rods in 2 months u will be in need of 2 new tires no matter how softly u drive it

Great to see we are all on the same page

I guess my tires will either be perfectly fine with just an alignment, or worthless in less than 100 miles...

at least i know what to do now.. KILL MYSELF!!:laugh:

 

[turbohappy]

Here's an easy way...find a shop in your area doing free alignment checks (they put it on the rack and give you a print-out, in hopes you will pay for them to align it). Get your print-out and come back and post your #s. That's the only way to know 100% for sure, but a 1" drop should put you less than 1 degree negative. I've been running around (not in a DSM, but in another double-wishbone) for years at 1 degree negative on a pretty soft tire without much wear, because I got the toe set exactly to zero.

I'm sure this friend you talk about had toe problems...did he get an alignment?

I don't understand, alignments really aren't expensive. $60 will get you the best alignment shop's work in town.

 

[brentsd]

just listen to turbohappy, go get the readings if your front or rear toe is pretty far out then have them do the alignment, its doubtful that you will need a front camber kit with only a 1" drop, i'm over 2" and i'm only .5 degrees out of spec in the front. But the alignment is a must or else kiss your tires goodbye with all the toe you'll probably have...

 

[ProjectTalon130]

Have a question to add, just about to get a 97 talon TSI AWD and wondering what i should think of replacing at the cars current mileage (71,000)? Definitely getting the 1.3" all around Pro-Kit and KYB AGX adjustable struts, but from what i've been reading, will i need a camber kit at all? Or ball joints? Bushings? Not sure what is needed at this mileage mark on these cars. Thanks in advance for any insight.

 

[Wobble]

Well today i did the VFAQ camber kit install, piece of cake, the rear still has a LITTLE negative camber, but i figure thats ok, now im just gonna get it aligned and leave it at that..

car is much more stable BTW, even with stock shocks, at 140 the car feels nice and plated, not floaty like it did with stock springs

 

[Wobble]

ok the verdict is in, took it to quikalign..

Rear camber = perfect
Front camber -.4 right, -.5 left..

i think im ok

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

Originally posted by Wobble
ok the verdict is in, took it to quikalign..

Rear camber = perfect
Front camber -.4 right, -.5 left..

i think im ok

what is the toe?

 

[Wobble]

I dont know, factory spec i guess, they didnt say they had any probs.. ???

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

did they give you a print out of before and final readings? If not be sure to get them in the future. ALWAYS.

Don't know if it was mentioned, but toe need to be as close to zero as humanly possible and both sides equal.

 

[DG-FNR]

Actually, you want a very slight amount of toe IN on a street car.

The reason is bushing deflection. Under load, the bushings deflect and try and toe the car out. If you start with static toe in, you wind up with dynamic zero toe.

The factory specs for toe are good that way.

Every thime the ride height on the car changes, you must reset the toe. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Oh, and don't put poly bushings in the lower control arms of a 2G. Jack the car up, take off a wheel, and watch the bushings as a friend moves the steering from lock to lock to see why.

DG

 

[turbohappy]

Good point. For auto-x, I like to set the static toe to 0 (when still a street car anyway), but for just a daily driver, a bit of toe-in is a good thing.