Koni/Ground Control Questions

[smills1840]

I'm going with the Koni/Ground Control combo for my 2g in couple weeks, but I have a few questions first.

I have this setup installed on my car, so I thought I'd answer my own questions in case anyone else is wondering the same thing.

1. What are the best spring rates for a DD? The car will be tracked 2 or 3 times a year, and the roads where I live are tolerable. I've searched a couple times, and the conversation always digresses towards how the OP's choice of spring/shock is wrong, and never really answers the question.

I went with 750front / 325rear and it has been absolutely perfect. There are some rough roads here, and if you're careful about avoiding pot holes and ruts these rates are great for a DD. When the Konis are turned all the way towards full stiff, it gets a little rough, but that should obviously be used on a case by case basis.

2. Is this the right combination if I'm wanting to lower the car, while both increasing handling performance and maintaining and "comfortable" ride? I know this combo is one of the better options as far as "budget" suspension performance goes, but does that still apply if I'm going to lower the car ~2"? The following quote is the reason I'm asking this question:

It's not a spring rate problem. Small variances in rate will have minimal affect on spring deflection. The problem with the Konis specifically is shock travel. Without moving the perch, any amount that you remove from the spring height also takes away from shock travel. And it doesn't take much before you're bottoming out the shock. I don't know where their limit is, but 1.5" sounds about right. This isn't to say that Koni doesn't make a nice shock; they're just not designed to support the "slammed" look or even a few inches of lowering for that matter.

Personally, I didn't "slam" my car. I lowered it a fair amount (1.25"-1.5"), and I really haven't felt it slam into the bump stops yet. I also haven't heard/felt the tires rub anywhere on the car, but I don't know my wheel specs so that could have a lot to do with it.

3. Will I need a front camber kit? Everything I've read point to no, but I thought I would still ask. I know for a fact I'll need one for the rear.

I didn't need a kit in the front as I had plenty of adjustment to get the camber in spec. In the rear, I used 3 washers all around and that worked out fine. The number of washers might be completely different in your case though, so take that with a grain of salt.

BTW, I'm open to other suggestions as far as my setup goes. My budget is ~$1,100.

Although this is the only suspension setup I've had experience with, I really think everyone's opinion of this combo being the best option under $2,000 is absolutely justified. I love the way my car handles and rides now, and it just looks like it should.

Thanks guys!

 

[smills1840]

Also, if I buy the RTM upper mounts, will that solve the pillow ball issue?

 

[PrimerPLus]

I have Koni Yellows with Ground Control. car is lowered 1.5 inches. I like them. Yes you will need a rear camber kit. I don't have a camber kit in the front and I think most will say its not really needed unless you are way way out of spec.
Basically you will find that this setup is the best without spending a ton of money on full blown coilovers.
So you will be happy. As far as spring rates, I am not sure. I got my setup used but they were used on a street/strip car and I enjoy them. I dont know what their rates are.

 

[knochgoon24]

I'm running 600F/350R and it's been alright. Going with 700F/400R would also be a solid choice. I run a RM rear sway bar and the stock front. I like the setup.

The RTM mounts are designed similar to the DG's. But I would check with RTM before ordering anything, as they don't always have those in stock.

This is a nice guide, too.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/385416-my-koni-gc-rre-dg-style-install.html

If the springs are too stiff for you, you can pick up other spring rates for fairly cheap. That's the beauty of this setup. I picked up a set of 250# springs on eBay for $40 shipped. I was going to put them on the rear and move the 350# springs to the front for winter, but didn't feel like messing with it this year.

 

[smills1840]

I'm running 600F/350R and it's been alright. Going with 700F/400R would also be a solid choice. I run a RM rear sway bar and the stock front. I like the setup.

The RTM mounts are designed similar to the DG's. But I would check with RTM before ordering anything, as they don't always have those in stock.

Aren't those a bit aggressive for a daily driver? Or am I completely mistaken that higher spring rates produce a rougher ride?

 

[knochgoon24]

It is a tad rougher, but I also don't have a bad back. I routinely drive from central MI to western PA, neither state is known for road quality, and it's not a problem for me. And my driver seat has 273k of wear.

If you build your setup to use 2.5" ID springs instead of 2.25", you'll have a bit better selection of used springs, if you ever decide to do that.
For example, 600#, 2.5"x8" springs for $40+$12 shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hypercoil-C...pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item485002467a&vxp=mtr

 

[smills1840]

Judging from your profile picture, I'm going to assume you AutoX. I will probably never do that, so could I get away with some lower spring rates for a better ride?

 

[UofACATS]

First, the OP's spring-rate choice is usually wrong, but in this case you've wisely omitted specific numbers. Having nothing to jump all over, I'll just grudgingly provide "helpful" advice.

What's the stock rates for the ground control kit? (500-250?) That would probably be a non-offensive ride. I have run the stock GC setup but I'm too old to remember anything about it. From what I've learned, 250lb rear spring wrapped around a koni yellow is squarely in comfortable territory (for modded suspension). Remember there are a few additional factors that contribute to ride comfort, and one of the most overlooked is size and type of tire. Commuting on NT01's is much different than oem sized all-terrains. (Even in a race bucket).

I'd lower it one inch personally and forget about replacing the upper mount. Just FYI, lowering a car so it's very close to the bump stops means one of two things: you'll be using very high spring rates to prevent riding on the bump stops, or you'll be riding on the bump stops. If you're concerned about performance, and you are, that's a bad thing. Easy equation: the lower the car, the higher the required spring rates.

You only need a front camber kit if it increases front camber.

With the konis and GC's it'll handle well enough to have some track fun. For a massive upgrade in performance/fun on those track days, grab a second pair of wheels and get some R-compound tires.

 

[smills1840]

I'll be running a 255/35/18 tire, so it has a decent amount of sidewall. I know 18's won't help the comfort situation, but I'm willing to sacrifice. Perhaps I was misleading in my OP. I already know that I won't have OEM ride quality, and that's fine. I'm just curious which springs rates are considered the most "comfy".

Also, if I want to lower it more than an inch, is this not the right setup for me? I hate the wheel/fender gap, and I can't stand looking at it anymore.

I really appreciate the help guys!

 

[knochgoon24]

You'll run into clearance issues between the front upper control arm and the inner fender OR you'll have your tires rubbing on the inside top of the inner fender if you don't run a high enough spring rate and a proper height bump stop.

 

[smills1840]

Suspension is so confusing.

How about this. I want to run 18" rims, with minimal fender gap (lowered a decent amount), with tolerable ride quality for a daily driver.

What are my options?

 

[smills1840]

Also, if the koni/ground control combo isn't right for me, is there a suitable option between koni/GC and KW variant 3? Not quite looking to spend that much

 

[jtmcinder]

The cheapest OTS option that handles well and rides nicely is $2400 (KW V3s), so you're stuck with Konis and sleeves if you want to do this affordably.

Keep in mind that, on a 2G, like most front-heavy cars, ride quality is mostly determined by the rear shocks. In contrast to some suggestions above, I would argue for something like 750/325 if you want a decent ride on the street. And if you want to be low, consider paying to have the front shocks shortened by an inch, so you still have some travel before hitting the bumpstops.

In the rear, a handful of washers will fix the camber. In the front, you can just leave it alone (for daily driving), or do something to the inboard pick-up for racing. The low-offset bent eye-bolts installed backwards is the easiest. Redrilling the upper A-arm is better but a pain.

I'm not going to give you too much of a hard time about the 18"s, but I will say that it makes no sense.

 

[smills1840]

Thanks for your input. How much does it cost to get the shocks shortened? And I know you're not fond of 18"s, but I hate the wheel gap on 2Gs.

 

[jtmcinder]

It was something like $75 per shock to get them shortened. I think I used True Choice.

As to 18"s ... wheel gap is from tire to fender, isn't it? The wheels are a side issue. Plus, when you lower the car with coilovers, that will take of it. Why make the car slower and less comfy just so a few other MALES think your car looks good? Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.

tee hee

245/40/17 on a 17x8.5 +38 with rolled rear fender lips. Looks good. Handles well (with the right tires), with as much grip and way better ride than 255/35/18s.

 

[smills1840]

Do you have any pictures of the wheel setup you're talking about?

 

[jtmcinder]

My Avatar is the car on 17x8 +40 ASA IS6 wheels with 245/40/17s, lowered about an inch on Konis. I don't know if I have any other pictures. The car is long gone.

 

[smills1840]

So just to be sure, 750/325 will give me a tolerable ride? Will a lower rear rate be better?

 

[jtmcinder]

Yes. It's the rear springs and shocks that are key to ride quality. Another option, if you don't mind the risk the car-sickness on the highway, is 750-800 front and 300 rear with only the rear swaybar upgraded.

 

[smills1840]

Ya car sickness is not an option. I'll just go 750/325. Would you recommend a sway bar upgrade as well?

 

[kickasskid2087]

Im running konis and 700F/ 400R springs. Lowered 2 inches on 245/45/17. Camber kit in rear and stock sway bars. Its a tad rough on big bumps and such but very tolerable to me.

 

[smills1840]

Thanks for the input.

Also, what would happen if I put the 750/325 springs on my stock shocks for a month or 2?

 

[ACM]

Thanks for the input.

Also, what would happen if I put the 750/325 springs on my stock shocks for a month or 2?

Think pogo stick...

 

[smills1840]

I know the ride would be horrible, but would the shocks last a month?

Another hypothetical question. If I were to get 2 konis at a time, should I get the front pair or the rear pair first?

 

[snowborder714]

Could you even install the springs on the stock shocks? With a Koni/GC setup, the springs are a different style than stock.