E316G - 16psi vs 19psi w/meth, I expected bigger difference...

[jjw205]

I just hooked up my DO meth kit, controlled by Link. Upped the boost from 16psi to 19psi with the meth, and added a little timing and took a little fuel out. I guess I expected more of an increase in power. Airflow readings are only showing ~1lb/min airflow increase. Am I at least heading in the right direction? I don't want to run much more than 19psi with the stock headbolts so I'd like to squeeze as much power as I can with this configuration. Any help/advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

[WES_393]

Where are you injecting the methanol? Are you running water/meth or just pure methanol? Your 16g is blowing bubbles right now. You would get much more flow (and power) out of it by getting it well into the 20psi range. Your also only running a degree or two more timing than the previous log. Try adding more timing until you actually see knock, then back it down. But I wouldn't expect any serious power gains until you get that turbo into it's efficiency range. Your on the right path, just get some head studs, crank up the boost, then adjust timing to the maximum safe level.

[jjw205]

Originally Posted by WES_393

Where are you injecting the methanol? Are you running water/meth or just pure methanol? Your 16g is blowing bubbles right now. You would get much more flow (and power) out of it by getting it well into the 20psi range. Your also only running a degree or two more timing than the previous log. Try adding more timing until you actually see knock, then back it down. But I wouldn't expect any serious power gains until you get that turbo into it's efficiency range. Your on the right path, just get some head studs, crank up the boost, then adjust timing to the maximum safe level.

I'm injecting 50/50 meth right before the 90deg bend to the TB. That is as much timing as I can run without knock, I'm running 9.0:1 compression. I just figured I would be a lot closer to 300whp with my setup, at 19-20 psi and meth.

[fallenauthority]

Originally Posted by jjw205

I'm injecting 50/50 meth right before the 90deg bend to the TB. That is as much timing as I can run without knock, I'm running 9.0:1 compression. I just figured I would be a lot closer to 300whp with my setup, at 19-20 psi and meth.

For some reason I cant open you logs but what is your max timing you are running right now? If you arent at 300whp at 19psi something is wrong. I was at 350whp on my old 2g with 8.5:1 compression and 21psi on my evoIII 16g.

[awdmonster1904]

I would do a leak down test and compression test to see what shape the motor is at . If you ever want to boost more than 20 I would upgrade the HG and head studs more boost more power

[jjw205]

Originally Posted by fallenauthority

For some reason I cant open you logs but what is your max timing you are running right now? If you arent at 300whp at 19psi something is wrong. I was at 350whp on my old 2g with 8.5:1 compression and 21psi on my evoIII 16g.

I can only get 15-16deg at 7k. Anything more than that, I knock bad. Link is showing around 260 at the wheels, but I figured with the E3 intake, TB, and exhaust mani, I would be a lot closer to 300-325. Everything is set up correctly for the HP calculations. It says I'm only flowing ~34lb/min.

Originally Posted by awdmonster1904

I would do a leak down test and compression test to see what shape the motor is at . If you ever want to boost more than 20 I would upgrade the HG and head studs more boost more power

I know I need studs and a new HG down the line, but like I said I want to try to get what I can with this setup at 19psi, as I won't be doing that until next year. I did a compression test and got 200psi across all 4 cyl...

[fallenauthority]

Originally Posted by jjw205

I can only get 15-16deg at 7k. Anything more than that, I knock bad. Link is showing around 260 at the wheels, but I figured with the E3 intake, TB, and exhaust mani, I would be a lot closer to 300-325. Everything is set up correctly for the HP calculations. It says I'm only flowing ~34lb/min.



I know I need studs and a new HG down the line, but like I said I want to try to get what I can with this setup at 19psi, as I won't be doing that until next year. I did a compression test and got 200psi across all 4 cyl...

I just looked at one of my old logs, I was flowing 41lb/min at 21psi and running 18* timing on 93 pump gas. Dont ever go by your HP estimate, it is never right.
If you can only run 15-16 degrees even with meth something is seriously off.

[jjw205]

Originally Posted by fallenauthority

I just looked at one of my old logs, I was flowing 41lb/min at 21psi and running 18* timing on 93 pump gas. Dont ever go by your HP estimate, it is never right.
If you can only run 15-16 degrees even with meth something is seriously off.

Your airfow readings must have been skewed. Not many people get over 40lb/min at 25ish psi. I think the max Ive seen was 42ish.

[fallenauthority]

Airflow readings were not skewed. Jmfab intake manifold, comp 101200 cams = very efficient engine.

[jjw205]

Originally Posted by fallenauthority

Airflow readings were not skewed. Jmfab intake manifold, comp 101200 cams = very efficient engine.

Not doubting you, just surprised to see those numbers at a relatively low psi.

Anyways, I think my airflow numbers are reading low, if the BoostEst has anything to do with it. At 7000RPM, BoostEst is 14.6 and actual boost is 18ish. Could that affect airflow readings? My AFRs match up fine (without meth of course). Fuel trims are within 3%, so I think the injectors are dialed in decently.

As far as timing, I wouldnt say something is "seriously off" if I'm only running 16deg. I've seen a lot of Evo guys with very similair maps as mine. I gained about 2 deg up top after the meth install. The car feels good, and the 70mph-90mph (2.6 sec) is decent compared to others I've seen with comparable setups.

I guess I just expected more. Makes me wonder if its worth tearing everything apart to install studs to run 22-23psi, if theres only that much difference between 15 and 19. I am running the "fragile" Evo III bottom end after all



Edit: Did another log today. I notice how HP numbers drop off at the same time BoostEst and BoostActual start to drift apart.

[PieEyedPiper]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuni...ached-log.html

Originally Posted by c2ypt1c

boostest is only accurate within a certain rpm range, near peak volumetric efficiency (around 5000-6000 rpm). This is why wbfactor is the preferred method for calibration.

Calan did a good job with that thread, I'm betting there's something you can pick up in there.

[bmoha7321]

That is what I did. Seems to work well. I welcome others input.

[GoldÐiamond]

Originally Posted by bmoha7321

That is what I did. Seems to work well. I welcome others input.

I don't follow, why would you want to do that?

[viridionplague]

your airflow reading look fine to me.

boost est and actual boost should be the same between 5000-5500 rpm where the engine hits peak efficiency.

also, i noticed on my 16g setup that the car really starts waking up around 20 psi of boost. in my experiance these things love around 22-24 psi

[Calan]

Originally Posted by jjw205

Airflow readings are only showing ~1lb/min airflow increase.

I think you should see a larger change in airflow than that with a 4psi change in boost; I would expect at least 4 or 5 lbs/min more. Wherever the air is going, your HP estimates don't seem too far off, given the other log data and your 70-90 times (right at 2.9 secs in the last log I believe).

Originally Posted by fallenauthority

Dont ever go by your HP estimate, it is never right.

Depends on how accurate the numbers going in are. Garbage in, garbage out.


*****

When is your WAI kicking in? Have you checked the flow at the nozzle? WBFactor looks kind of choppy at first, like the car is fighting to maintain a level AFR.

[bmoha7321]

GoldDiamond; to convert to ARP head studs without pulling off the head

[jjw205]

Thanks for all of the responses guys. Appreciated.

Originally Posted by Calan

I think you should see a larger change in airflow than that with a 4psi change in boost; I would expect at least 4 or 5 lbs/min more. Wherever the air is going, your HP estimates don't seem too far off, given the other log data and your 70-90 times (right at 2.9 secs in the last log I believe).



Depends on how accurate the numbers going in are. Garbage in, garbage out.


*****

When is your WAI kicking in? Have you checked the flow at the nozzle? WBFactor looks kind of choppy at first, like the car is fighting to maintain a level AFR.

I was thinking 4-5lb/min more also.

WAI is kicking in at 3500RPM, load 1.6, TPS >86%. Measured AFR is dropping approx 1 full point during injection, wich means my nozzle size is accurate, from what I have read.

Should I be running leaner than I am with the meth?

Originally Posted by bmoha7321

That is what I did. Seems to work well. I welcome others input.

I have thought of that, but have read more negative than positive about it. At that point, I might as well put in a new head gasket and have the head checked out and at least valve seals replaced (cheap).

Originally Posted by viridionplague

your airflow reading look fine to me.

boost est and actual boost should be the same between 5000-5500 rpm where the engine hits peak efficiency.

also, i noticed on my 16g setup that the car really starts waking up around 20 psi of boost. in my experiance these things love around 22-24 psi

Yes, thats what I remember from JeffGST's site a long time ago. That's what I targeted when originally setting everything up. It is almost exactly on in that range. I just dont know why its so far apart in the higher RPMs, and if it actually affects airflow numbers or not.



Is 16 deg of timing really that low with meth? If it is, why would I be so limited on what I can run?

[fallenauthority]

Originally Posted by jjw205

Thanks for all of the responses guys. Appreciated.




I was thinking 4-5lb/min more also.

WAI is kicking in at 3500RPM, load 1.6, TPS >86%. Measured AFR is dropping approx 1 full point during injection, wich means my nozzle size is accurate, from what I have read.

Should I be running leaner than I am with the meth?



I have thought of that, but have read more negative than positive about it. At that point, I might as well put in a new head gasket and have the head checked out and at least valve seals replaced (cheap).






Yes, thats what I remember from JeffGST's site a long time ago. That's what I targeted when originally setting everything up. It is almost exactly on in that range. I just dont know why its so far apart in the higher RPMs, and if it actually affects airflow numbers or not.



Is 16 deg of timing really that low with meth? If it is, why would I be so limited on what I can run?

Ok, you are right on with nozzle size, a proper injection setup will get you about 1 point lower on a/f. If what I am seeing on the log is correct (AEMWB) you are at about 11.1:1 or so, give or take .1 for most of the run. I would be shooting for more like 11.6:1 on meth.
I dont see ANY knock in your log on that run with meth, so why are you running such low timing? Try bumping timing up a couple degrees and give us another log to work with, maybe play around in the DA tables to get you a smoother timing table to eliminate any knock you may be getting.

Your boost est is not affecting airflow readings, on the contrary, your airflow readings affect your boostest. Boostest is derived from airflow readings and is calculated by the correlation of airflow readings and a predetermined VE (volumetric efficiency) table within the ecu. At least that is how I recall if from years ago.

[jjw205]

Originally Posted by fallenauthority

Ok, you are right on with nozzle size, a proper injection setup will get you about 1 point lower on a/f. If what I am seeing on the log is correct (AEMWB) you are at about 11.1:1 or so, give or take .1 for most of the run. I would be shooting for more like 11.6:1 on meth.
I dont see ANY knock in your log on that run with meth, so why are you running such low timing? Try bumping timing up a couple degrees and give us another log to work with, maybe play around in the DA tables to get you a smoother timing table to eliminate any knock you may be getting.

Your boost est is not affecting airflow readings, on the contrary, your airflow readings affect your boostest. Boostest is derived from airflow readings and is calculated by the correlation of airflow readings and a predetermined VE (volumetric efficiency) table within the ecu. At least that is how I recall if from years ago.

OK, I didn't know I could run that lean on meth.

I did have 1.4 deg of knock on that last log I posted (post #10), but I can try adding a little more timing in the higher RPMs. I will post some logs this weekend for you guys.

Thanks again

[GSTurbo1]

HP calculations have to be off, i'm dyno'd at 233 hp on 6psi on a built 420a... does it feel a lot quicker?

[jjw205]

Yes, it feels like more than 260whp to me, but who knows. It is saying 270+wtq, so who knows really. I'm not using the estimates to be exact, it's just about 50hp less than I expected.

I guess the whole point is trying to figure out how 20 psi can have the same approximate airflow readings as 15psi. With no boost leaks.

[fallenauthority]

Originally Posted by jjw205

Yes, it feels like more than 260whp to me, but who knows. It is saying 270+wtq, so who knows really. I'm not using the estimates to be exact, it's just about 50hp less than I expected.

I guess the whole point is trying to figure out how 20 psi can have the same approximate airflow readings as 15psi. With no boost leaks.

Well like it was posted earlier, this turbo doesnt really wake up until you hit 21-22psi. My car at 21-22 was a HUGE increase over the 18-19 I had run before. I ran 11.5:1 a/f on pump 93 with no meth, a lot of people dont like em that lean but mine loved it, however your results may vary. 11.6 on meth is nothing, your car should take that a/f no problem on meth.

[jjw205]

Originally Posted by fallenauthority

Well like it was posted earlier, this turbo doesnt really wake up until you hit 21-22psi. My car at 21-22 was a HUGE increase over the 18-19 I had run before. I ran 11.5:1 a/f on pump 93 with no meth, a lot of people dont like em that lean but mine loved it, however your results may vary. 11.6 on meth is nothing, your car should take that a/f no problem on meth.

OK, I will try that soon and post up some new logs. Thanks for the advice. I will add a little timing up top too, I have been getting knock at 5200 with 10 deg timing adv.

I just dont want to run much more than 19-20 on stock headbolts and head gasket.

[jjw205]

Updated log. I added a little timing and leaned it out some. No power increase. Still about the same. I still dont know how people are over 300whp+ at 20psi, unless Link is that far off. I just expected more.

On a side note, disregard the wideband reading, it has been erratic, I don't really think I was running 14s with no knock . Must need a new sensor or something.

Is this all I can expect for this setup? Any other areas I can tweak?

Thanks again guys.

[UofACATS]

Originally Posted by jjw205

I still dont know how people are over 300whp+ at 20psi

Stop worrying about comparing unsubstantiated whp numbers to your EMS horsepower estimation, it's a waste of time.

19 psi is not the limit of the amount of boost you can run. If you want more power then run more boost. Your log shows good airflow calibration, no knock, and a frightening AFR. Judging by your airflow reading, you have a large exhaust leak skewing the wideband reading.

Originally Posted by jjw205

Updated log. I added a little timing

You're requesting less timing than the stock map.

To verify go to direct access from the datalog, track datalog with the modified timing table. Then go to direct access from the datalog, revert modified timing back to original, track datalog and observe.

[jjw205]

Originally Posted by UofACATS

Stop worrying about comparing unsubstantiated whp numbers to your EMS horsepower estimation, it's a waste of time.

19 psi is not the limit of the amount of boost you can run. If you want more power then run more boost. Your log shows good airflow calibration, no knock, and a frightening AFR. Judging by your airflow reading, you have a large exhaust leak skewing the wideband reading.



You're requesting less timing than the stock map.

To verify go to direct access from the datalog, track datalog with the modified timing table. Then go to direct access from the datalog, revert modified timing back to original, track datalog and observe.

I understand the "calculations" for HP may not be correct, but I at least expected to see an increase, despite the "number".

I know, I must have an exhaust leak somewhere all of a sudden. I ran over a piece of a blown out truck tire, must have dislodged something.

I know I am running lower timing than stock, like I said, I was having a hard time running more than 9* at max torque, and 12-13* at higher RPM until the meth. So 16-17* up top now may be less than stock, but I think it's a decent amount for my 9.0:1 compression.

[UofACATS]

Originally Posted by jjw205

I understand the "calculations" for HP may not be correct, but I at least expected to see an increase, despite the "number".

Noted. I would keep the comparisons between your car only. I like the ECMlink HP calculator because it is consistent and that's all you need.

Originally Posted by jjw205

I know I am running lower timing than stock, like I said, I was having a hard time running more than 9* at max torque, and 12-13* at higher RPM until the meth. So 16-17* up top now may be less than stock, but I think it's a decent amount for my 9.0:1 compression.

16º up top is stock. You do hit 16 degrees in that log for a split second, but your timing in general is still conservative (that's fine).

I'll quote myself here in order to make a point of some strange behavior that log shows.

Originally Posted by UofACATS

To verify go to direct access from the datalog, track datalog with the modified timing table.

When you do this on the TmngMaxOct table in Direct Access, your timing numbers in the log don't match up. The requested numbers are even less aggressive than the stock map. Now, what's interesting is they seem to follow your TmngMinOct table, which are actually set more aggressive than the Max.

I checked the log for logged octane, but it wasn't there. Point is, why is your car on the low oct timing map?


Regarding the AFR the wideband shows, I'd address that before continuing although I'd think you're correct about it being a false reading.

Once that's addressed, and perhaps the timing perplexity above.. you have a car which is giving you full requested timing (and then some) and is showing no knock. Time for more boost.

[jjw205]

Originally Posted by UofACATS

When you do this on the TmngMaxOct table in Direct Access, your timing numbers in the log don't match up. The requested numbers are even less aggressive than the stock map. Now, what's interesting is they seem to follow your TmngMinOct table, which are actually set more aggressive than the Max.

I checked the log for logged octane, but it wasn't there. Point is, why is your car on the low oct timing map?


Regarding the AFR the wideband shows, I'd address that before continuing although I'd think you're correct about it being a false reading.

Once that's addressed, and perhaps the timing perplexity above.. you have a car which is giving you full requested timing (and then some) and is showing no knock. Time for more boost.

I am running meth thru ECMLink, if you go to the EGR Solenoid tab, you will see when I have it set to activate. I have the MinOct maps set up to be used when the methanol is injecting.

I know the timing is a little less than "stock". But it is a lot more boost than stock, and it is actually higher than the factory Evo III maps, which this motor and turbo are out of.

How much more boost would you run on stock head bolts?

[Calan]

Originally Posted by jjw205

How much more boost would you run on stock head bolts?

With 650cc injectors and a 190lph pump, you are most likely going to run out of fuel before you get to the limits of the head bolts...assuming a safe tune of course.

*****

Just as an FYI - You might try playing around with the secondary fuel adjustments on the AuxMaps tab. You can tell Link to pull some percentage of fuel based on the same parameters that you are triggering the meth with (EGR output). In effect, this allows you to "replace" the stock fuel with meth, so that your resulting AFR still matches the targets in the DA table.

It takes some experimentation, but it's pretty handy. Just don't go crazy with it, and remove very small percentages until you get a feel for it.

[jjw205]

Originally Posted by Calan

With 650cc injectors and a 190lph pump, you are most likely going to run out of fuel before you get to the limits of the head bolts...assuming a safe tune of course.

Ok, good to hear. I keep hearing this "20 psi" limiting factor talk on the stock 7 bolt bolts. I understand with a good tune, lifting the head will be less likely than most think.

Now I just have to worry about these Evo III ringlands

Originally Posted by Calan

Just as an FYI - You might try playing around with the secondary fuel adjustments on the AuxMaps tab. You can tell Link to pull some percentage of fuel based on the same parameters that you are triggering the meth with (EGR output). In effect, this allows you to "replace" the stock fuel with meth, so that your resulting AFR still matches the targets in the DA table.

It takes some experimentation, but it's pretty handy. Just don't go crazy with it, and remove very small percentages until you get a feel for it.

OK, Thanks for the suggestion. I saw that in there but it seemed easier to set up a new secondary table. But I will mess around with that method in the future.

I did just pick up a set of ARP's. I plan on replacing them "one at a time". I understand it may not be the best method, but I do not want to pull the motor again anytime soon.

But for now, I will turn up the boost to ~22ish, and try to get some more logs this weekend.