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Evo16G Dyno Results- Not Happy :-/

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NvDiS

10+ Year Contributor
144
0
Nov 25, 2010
Miami, Florida
so after a year and adding a couple things i re-dynoed Saturday and here were my results.

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in 2011 my mods were= spiking 27-28 falling to 20-19 A/F 11.8 ( GREEN NUMBERS)

EVO III Big 16G (ported & 34mm Flapper),
EVO III 02 housing(ported)
fake Injen Intake,
Apexi N1 3inch turbo back,
unknown Front Mount Intercooler (with alot of breaks in the piping),
Greddy rs BOV(leaking bad) ,
walbro 255hp,
RC 1200cc injectors on E85
Dsmlink V3 with speed density

Engine Internals:
BC 272's,ARP head studs



since last dyno till today ive added

EVO III Intake Manifold/1G 60mm Throttle Body($200),
FP 4' Intake($160),
MAP Front Mount Intercooler($300),
NGR type-s($155),
Modified Hoslet WGA to fit 16G($100),
tested system for 30psi(no leaks)
New spark plugs($12),
flow tested injectors($60),
and hour of dyno time ($100)

12-1-12 Spiking 28 holding 22psi, A/F 11.8 (BLUE NUMBERS)

after spending an additional $1087+ :|

Car made only +13 peak horsepower and +7 lbs torque :banghead:

now the part that im impressed is that near redline it made +30AWHP and +25 lbs (as illustrated)


bottom line i was hoping to break the 400 mark or atleast match it,

this was done on a DYNOjet


am i missing something? are these good numbers? does the horsepower sound right for the mods listed? thanks in advance
 
Well your only "mods" were

EVO III Intake Manifold/1G 60mm Throttle Body($200),
FP 4' Intake($160),
MAP Front Mount Intercooler($300),

The 4" intake was a downgrade to the ebay intake you had before. There is tons of solid info on these forums about it as well. The step down from 4" to 2.25" hinders flow. I'll try to find a couple links for ya, but it was near .5 lbs/min decrease.

The only power adding mod was the evo IM and tb. But 13whp gain from an IM change seems pretty damn nice to me.

If changing back to the ebay intake pipe nets you that .5 lbs/min increase in flow, you might have gained 18whp from your IM and tb change, thats bad ass numbers imo.
 
Well your only "mods" were

EVO III Intake Manifold/1G 60mm Throttle Body($200),
FP 4' Intake($160),
MAP Front Mount Intercooler($300),

The 4" intake was a downgrade to the ebay intake you had before. There is tons of solid info on these forums about it as well. The step down from 4" to 2.25" hinders flow. I'll try to find a couple links for ya, but it was near .5 lbs/min decrease.

The only power adding mod was the evo IM and tb. But 13whp gain from an IM change seems pretty damn nice to me.

If changing back to the ebay intake pipe nets you that .5 lbs/min increase in flow, you might have gained 18whp from your IM and tb change, thats bad ass numbers imo.

really?! that sucks.I threw out that ebay intake (FML) im going to look into that. the car does spools amazing now i got to watch out for the part throttle boost,
 
^What they said (they beat me to it!)

Its been documented that the FP 4 inch is actually worse than a smaller intake FWIW. Check for Pbalagio (sorry spelling) on the members list and go to his forum entry about maxing out the evo 3 16g for more details.

As for the numbers, you seem to fall off extremely hard compared to my numbers. I mean to say, Im on a 2.3 and dont have a fall off in power as bad as you by any stretch, and I should see more as the turbo runs out of efficiency earlier with a 2.3. Keep in mind though, I do have a fully ported head and a larger magnus street intake mani. How significantly have you ported the turbine housing on your turbo? Is it possible you could have missed a boost leak anywhere? Something doesn't seem to compute here to me either. Feel free to compare our mods and dyno charts for reference to to what Im talking about.
 
Yeah your boost is falling off. fix that and you'll make more. By the torque your making you should be close to 400whp. Try to use electronic boost control with ecm link.

well im speaking to the creator of the WGA he thinks maybe i didnt have enough preload on the WGA, im waiting to see what he suggest

A log helps

ill try to get one on here tonight of the actual final dyno run its on my tuners computer im going to ask him to email it.
 
377/418? a little hard to see. Assuming the numbers are right then those are pretty stout. I think the potential for 400 might be there on a dynojet with optimal conditions. What would help the most is to post the log, after all we're discussing an unsubstantiated value here.

Just right off the bat, I see you're running a mismatched turbo/intake combo. The following link is a thorough examination and subsequent discussion of maximizing power on the evo3 turbo.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/365759-evo3-16g-dyno-results.html
 
You picked up more than I would expect with the minimal performance upgrades.

I'm with stocker...I'd be more impressed with the gain early in the curve apparently coming from the IM swap. As for the gains up top, you were running 3 psi more boost on this pull, which could easily account for that (along with variations in the tune).
 
^What they said (they beat me to it!)

Its been documented that the FP 4 inch is actually worse than a smaller intake FWIW. Check for Pbalagio (sorry spelling) on the members list and go to his forum entry about maxing out the evo 3 16g for more details.

As for the numbers, you seem to fall off extremely hard compared to my numbers. I mean to say, Im on a 2.3 and dont have a fall off in power as bad as you by any stretch, and I should see more as the turbo runs out of efficiency earlier with a 2.3. Keep in mind though, I do have a fully ported head and a larger magnus street intake mani. How significantly have you ported the turbine housing on your turbo? Is it possible you could have missed a boost leak anywhere? Something doesn't seem to compute here to me either. Feel free to compare our mods and dyno charts for reference to to what Im talking about.

our mod list seems to be different, you have a ported head and a 2.3l block? I'm on a stock 7-bolt head and block except for cams and head studs,

im curious as to why i have i have 22lbs of torque over you and i have a 2.0

Sounds pretty good to me, this is all wheel horsepower as well. I use the dyno as a tool not as a judge of how my car runs.

dont get me wrong the car pulls like a frieght train LOL.

You picked up more than I would expect with the minimal performance upgrades.

I'm with stocker...I'd be more impressed with the gain early in the curve apparently coming from the IM swap. As for the gains up top, you were running 3 psi more boost on this pull, which could easily account for that (along with variations in the tune).

i figured that much, that the extra psi got me the power up top

377/418? a little hard to see. Assuming the numbers are right then those are pretty stout. I think the potential for 400 might be there on a dynojet with optimal conditions. What would help the most is to post the log, after all we're discussing an unsubstantiated value here.

Just right off the bat, I see you're running a mismatched turbo/intake combo. The following link is a thorough examination and subsequent discussion of maximizing power on the evo3 turbo.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/365759-evo3-16g-dyno-results.html

is the Fp intake really doing that bad, man im going to have to do some research. I ultimitely went with the FP at the off chance i upgrade to a PTE or Garret that the intake would be ready to go.
 
well im speaking to the creator of the WGA he thinks maybe i didnt have enough preload on the WGA, im waiting to see what he suggest

Preload will help but not totally. The problem is you have the drive pressure acting on a ~1" "diaphragm".

Soo, Im guessing on the big end with high boost you get close to (or more) 1.5:1 drive to boost ratio, so if you were wanting to run 28psi all the way up top, you'll have about 42psi drive pressure. That's acting on a ~1" diaphragm, with an area of .785"^2, making about 33lbs of force opening the wastegate.

Now down low where the boost spikes at you basically have 0 drive pressure, meaning it takes 28psi of boost to open the gate. That acts on about a 1.5" diaphragm (1.77sqin area) in the holset actuator. So that means the spring exerts 28*1.77 = 49.5lbs of force holding the gate closed.

So now we can calculate how much drive pressure you have right now.
You start with 49.5lbs of force on the spring, and you have 20psi boost trying to open it making (20*1.77) 35.5 lbs of force. That means that the drive pressure is making 14lbs of opening force, and (14/.785) about 18psi of drive.

Finally we can guesstimate how much WG signal you'll need to bleed off to hold 28psi to redline.
So we know we have 49.5lbs of force holding the gate shut, and probably 33 pounds opening it. So we only need the boost to generate 16.5 pounds of force at max rpm. Thats (16.5/1.77) = 9.5psi. So that means you need to set up your bcs so that when boost hits it bleeds off 0psi and delivers 28 to the WGA, then tapers with rpm so that at max rpm it's bleeding off enough so that it only delivers 9.5psi to the WGA.

I'm unsure how the boost control in ecm link works, but for me I on tunerpro I just have a table of bcs duty cycle vs RPM. I made an excel spreadsheet to calculate it out at each point on my spread sheet. You can approximate that drive pressure increases linearly with RPM. So then I knew how much pressure I needed at the WGA at each RPM point.

Then I made up a test rig. Basically I used a mini regulator to create the 35psi boost I was running (28psi for you), then hooked my boost control system up to that. It has to be exactly the same system as your going to run, because this is very sensitive to changes in line size and length...Basically I then tuned the bcs dc to get the pressure I needed, and then put that into my bcs table.

This is the exact method I used to hold 35psi on my internally gated holset setup, and I rev it all the way out to 9k. Keep in mind I did not use any kind of boost controller with this. I set my "base boost" with the WGA preload. Before I did this I would Spike to 35psi and then fall to like 25 at redline.

Technically a ball/sping MBC does the same thing here, but it just never seemed to work good for me.


Before I figured the above out, I put a bolt on my wga that limted the travel, so basically it initiated creep. I had it setup to make about 25psi then creep up to about 35psi. The power curve was the exact opposite of yours. It came on pretty soft, but kept pulling harder and harder as the rpm's came up. That was honestly scary, LOL. 90mph in 3rd and it starts skating around LOLoLOLol.
 
To OP: You answered your own question, the increased port work has allowed for more airflow, air velocity is reduced because of the extra volume to fill, lower velocity = lower torque BUT more volume = higher hp (mostly potential as the evo 3 is way way way undersized, but you get the idea). Your evo mani, when setup with the triggered ports, provides the best of both worlds, the theory is all sound and proven.

To add further to that, I can account for that torque at the 6800 rpm range, Im roughly 20 ft/lbs higher than you, as well as the fact that im making 310 ft/lbs by 3500 rpm while you are at 175 ft/lbs. Yours pulls like a frieght train, mine pulls like a rocket... :p Im sure with a smaller intake mani I would have a nice little torque adder down low too, however, this is a pit stop for me, a larger turbo is next.

As for the difference in setups, I kindly mentioned that was the case, take a look at what I said again, rather than focusing on the differences, try taking away something from what people post. Finally, note that the reference to pbalagio is linked by UOFACATS.
 
Last time I heard, TiAL wg setup is how you permanently fix falling off boost. A lot cheaper than $1k.

Plus, don't you need a Genie in a bottle to pull 400hp with a 16g?! ;)
 
I would be extremely happy with those results. Im shocked an evo makes that much power TBH. Even on e85. Good job and btw is the evo3 intake mani compatible with a 2g head or is it like the 1g mani where you have to port the hell out of the head? If its plug n play thats some CHEAP horsepower, congrats bro. Thats some ridiculous torque LOL
 
oh jeez, I need a dunce cap. I couldn't see the graph worth a shit and thought it only made like 280whp. LOL.

Still tho 362 is a little low imho. get the boost fixed. I made 330whp on a half blown china 16g on a completely stock n/t motor nothing other than a cheap fmic, 2.5" cat back, and E85. I had stock injectors, a 1g maf, and NO afc link chip or maft, no tuner at all! I was on like 24psi.
 
@bastarddsm.... How did you manage to run 24 psi and e85 with nothing to tune with
 
I'm very very crafty. and I didn't care if I blew the motor up. Took the stock regulator apart and shimmed the spring with a couple nickels. Then hacked on the maf untill it was about 13:1 at wot.
 
@bastarddsm.... How did you manage to run 24 psi and e85 with nothing to tune with

Theres alot you can do without todays tuning comodidies if you can understand how things work.

Op that's not a bad dyno. Just make sure you have no leaks and work on your tune some more.

About the intake issue you should think of it as an exhaust. If you ran a 3" exhaust and ended it with a section of 1.5" you can imagine the turbulence and back pressure that would be created at that point.

So essentially the way the 4"pipe funnels to 2" creates turbulence disrupting airflow instead of helping it.
 
Fwiw, u will never be able to maintain boost all the way up top. I have a holset actuator from Justin as well, and I'm using the boost control through ecmlink. Also note worthy that I'm on methanol fuel with no Intercooler, and forword facing charger. My boost control solinoidd is closed from 6k up. Boost fals from 30 to 24 by 8300, and that's at 133 mph (lots of inlet pressure). U won't be able to stop the boost from falling. And the transition from the 4" to the the inlet is way to aboupbt when using a 2.25 to 4". Need to make a transition, ideally with around a 7* tapper, space confinements will not allow this in most cases, but do the best you can with it. Doing good btw, keep pushing it
 
Was the wastgate hole also ported out with the 34mm flapper, because if you want more boost you leave the wastgate flapper and hole alone. By porting it out your letting more exhaust gasses bypass the turbine wheel which will get you less boost and fall off more if your trying to max out that 16g. It's grate to port the wastgate hole and put on a bigger flapper if your running low boost because you don't want boost creep, but your running high boost off of this turbo so that doesn't matter, you want the max and your not going to get that with a ported wg hole and bigger flapper. Sounds like you got a good wg actuator setup to take the high boost.
 
Off topic I know, but I am buying the fp intake soon and I have the old green so I think that is a 3" inlet on the turbo. That will be ok right, no problem with turbulence and lose of power going from 4" down to 3" right. Or should I find a 3" intake?
 
Off topic I know, but I am buying the fp intake soon and I have the old green so I think that is a 3" inlet on the turbo. That will be ok right, no problem with turbulence and lose of power going from 4" down to 3" right. Or should I find a 3" intake?

Ideally you want to match the diameter of the intake pipe to the turbo inlet. Any deviation from that, (especially 3" in front the compressor) is going to cause some airflow disruption. Nobody knows how much, but you might ask yourself, why should I buy a part that doesn't fit?

On the other hand: The 4" to 2.25" situation (linked thread) provided pretty extreme results in that: one, the system was otherwise very efficient, and two, the system was pushed to the limits in effort to find them. Further, the neckdown was not only more drastic than 4" to 3", but it was offset as well. A standard 4" to 3" coupler will provide a uniform "cone" reduction.

You can use the FP 4" pipe on whatever turbo you want as long as you adequately transition between the 4" outlet of the pipe and __" inlet of the turbo. The (linked thread) recommended a taper angle no greater than 7º, whether or not the evidence to support this is sufficient is up to you to decide. The point is, if you want the awesome flow of a 4" pipe, make sure you're not reducing the overall efficiency of the system by accounting for this transition. On a 3" turbo inlet with a 4" FP pipe, this is accomplished by acquiring a 4" to 3" cone reduction that is the same length as your MAF sensor. Move intake pipe where the MAF used to be, insert cone in the space between the intake pipe and the turbo inlet. That's about as good as it gets, short of just using a 3" intake on a 3" turbo inlet.

Note: If you're running a MAF , be advised you have lower hanging fruit.
 
The drop in boost sounds fairly normal to me. The E16G isn't a big turbo so if your engine is able to use the airflow, the boost will drop.
to be fair I'm happy if I reach your numbers.
 
What you missing are a set of custom 10-12:1 compression pistons. If you have a 7 bolts, you can get 10:1 off the self from Manley and Wiseco. I run 11:1 with a 35r and made 568hp on 20psi. Many guys are running 11:1 with 16g and making over 400hp. My friend 12:1 compression engine broke 700hp with 28psi on a gt4088r.

Custom Wiseco pistons are $650. I believe Maperformance can get you a better deal than going straight to the Wiseco. Evo 8-9 10:1 are around 550 from Extremepsi and Real Street and it will work on your engine if you have a 7 bolt.

You can run stock rods with after market high compression pistons by leaving the clips out. If you got the right fuel like e85, high compression will be the best option for maximizing a small turbo.
 
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