E85 + 22psi + AEM EMS = 559/407

[TheBoz]

So I just started to play with E85 over the weekend, and wow it is some really awesome fuel. I am very amazed at how easy it is to make power. To convert I basicly took my Q16 map and added 30% fuel to it and then just dialed in the AFR's. Now I basicly just turn the boost up and it makes power. So far the car is making more power over my Q16 tune. It is possible I was past MBT on Q16 and on E85 it is perfect timing. But I have not even started to tweak the timing yet, and the results speak for themselves.

VDR (Virtual Dyno Room) 22psi vs 19psi

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Also as an FYI the car weighs a little more than 3k according to the scales at the race track on saturday, and me and my brother are big dudes

I will hit the dyno next month when I have my 2150cc BlueMaxes and another Bosch 044 in the car. I have a strange feeling I will be out of fuel pump pretty quick here.

Link to the AEM Cal and Log Files:
Galant VR4/1g DSM Boost Comp 2.0/37r 91oct, Q16, E85

 

[habitatguy187]

I can't believe the power difference in just 3psi. What other changes were made during the two pulls? Timing/AF?

 

[TheBoz]

nothing. I just turned up the boost and left the timing were it was set on my q16 map.

AFR's at peek torque ~11.9 at peek RPM ~12.4

Timing
4050 - 9.71875
4450 - 11.125
4900 - 12.1796875
5300 - 12.8828125
5700 - 13.9375
6100 - 14.2890625
6550 - 14.9921875
6950 - 15.34375
7350 - 15.6953125
7750 - 16.046875
8200 - 16.75
8600 - 17.1015625
9000 - 17.453125

I think I need to make it a little richer in the top and add some more timing. I am getting a lot of noise up in the 7k+ range, nothing that pulls timing but if I add more it will start to knock. So I am going to add some fuel and more timing up on top and see if I can get that graph to level out a little bit.

 

[habitatguy187]

From what I've seen other guys running e85 do your timing is EXTREMELY low. I've read that it actually burns a lot better with higher timing (I don't know why) but that adding timing is almost as important as adding more fuel when running e85. I'm probably preaching to the choir here though.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Very solid graph. Numbers look good. You should be able to get well over 17* of timing. Especially on E85. Good idea on the fuel but I would try to stay in the 12.0-12.3 range and max your timing out.

 

[TheBoz]

Also I am on a 37r.

When I look at my log file after a pull, the knock volts gets right at my limit, before it starts to pulling timing. So tonight we are going to add some fuel and see if that cleans up the knock noise, and then we will try to add about 1-2 degrees of timing in the top. After that turning the boost up to 25psi. If the car does what it did this time and I get another almost 50ft torque for 3psi, I will be super excited. On q16 I was running about 490ft torque at 35psi. So if I am right on my q16 tune at 25psi, this car is going to be awesome.

Hell I am now telling everyone I know to make the switch to E85. It is some awesome crack rock for your car. It is very easy to tune, and takes a lot of abuse. When I was doing my first round of pulls my AFR's were in the 13.0-13.4 range, and the car never had a single issue.

This also makes me wish I went with an Aluminum Long Rod 2.0 @ 10:1 or 11:1 compression ratio.

So my next engine build will be super high compression.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Also I am on a 37r.

When I look at my log file after a pull, the knock volts gets right at my limit, before it starts to pulling timing. So tonight we are going to add some fuel and see if that cleans up the knock noise, and then we will try to add about 1-2 degrees of timing in the top. After that turning the boost up to 25psi. If the car does what it did this time and I get another almost 50ft torque for 3psi, I will be super excited. On q16 I was running about 490ft torque at 35psi. So if I am right on my q16 tune at 25psi, this car is going to be awesome.

Hell I am now telling everyone I know to make the switch to E85. It is some awesome crack rock for your car. It is very easy to tune, and takes a lot of abuse. When I was doing my first round of pulls my AFR's were in the 13.0-13.4 range, and the car never had a single issue.

This also makes me wish I went with an Aluminum Long Rod 2.0 @ 10:1 or 11:1 compression ratio.

So my next engine build will be super high compression.

You should be able to make WAY over those numbers. I have seen HTA35R cars, essentially a 37R, make in the 700's for HP and Torque. I would maybe look at why you are getting knock with such low timing and already running rich at 12.4:1. Typically you wanna target 12.5-12.8:1 depending on wideband placement and then adjust timing from there.

 

[habitatguy187]

Typically you wanna target 12.5-12.8:1 depending on wideband placement and then adjust timing from there.

Most e85 users I've seen target for 12.0-12.5 during WOT pulls. Even though it is boost juice you still don't want to blow it up, especially once you up the timing.

 

[TheBoz]

You should be able to make WAY over those numbers. I have seen HTA35R cars, essentially a 37R, make in the 700's for HP and Torque. I would maybe look at why you are getting knock with such low timing and already running rich at 12.4:1. Typically you wanna target 12.5-12.8:1 depending on wideband placement and then adjust timing from there.

Yes in pratice that sounds great, however I can show you log file that says otherwise. My car does not like lean AFR's even on 91oct(10.8), Q16(11.8-12.2), and Now E85. I am going to get me a new WB O2 and see if maybe my AEM WB is giving me false readings. On all the fuels, I have tweaked the AFR's lean and rich to see how the logs would react, and I have played with the timing up and down also. Once I get to 30psi, I will really spend a lot of time working on it there.

When I was tuning 30psi on Q16 I did about 28 pulls to dial in the 30psi range. I tested different AFR's, and different timing.

Here is a log from e85 and 12.4 AFR's. I will try to lean it out a little more and see what happens. But I really think that my car like to be a little more rich.

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[95blackGsTurbo]

You may be surprised. Some cars that run TOO rich, 11.5ish will actually have problems combusting the fuel and it will cause the knock sensor to read something that isn't knock. I would check the wideband as Q16 isn't sensor friendly. Then go back to your tuning. What plugs are you running as well?

 

[TheBoz]

Br8es @ .024

Also on my AEM WB and my EMS I have never been able to get them to read the same number. I have tried so many things I have even direct soldered the wires connecting to the gauge. And before you say it, yes I have set the gain correctly. This is why I really want to hit a dyno, so that I can use a standalone WB and real dyno to see what is really going on. Also my plugs never show any sign of knock which is a good thing however I do not want to push my luck. I am really trying to get to about mid 500's on torqueand that should be more than enough to push me down the track in the 130+ trap speeds.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Br8es @ .024

Also on my AEM WB and my EMS I have never been able to get them to read the same number. I have tried so many things I have even direct soldered the wires connecting to the gauge. And before you say it, yes I have set the gain correctly. This is why I really want to hit a dyno, so that I can use a standalone WB and real dyno to see what is really going on. Also my plugs never show any sign of knock which is a good thing however I do not want to push my luck. I am really trying to get to about mid 500's on torqueand that should be more than enough to push me down the track in the 130+ trap speeds.

Step back down to a 7 and gap it around .024. Since E85 burns so cold you want to get as hot of a plug as possible. This will help out a lot with combustion and should help with knock as well. Even cars making in excess of 700 on E85 are still running 7's to get the E85 to ignite properly.

 

[TheBoz]

Ya, I will see if I can track some down. Because I have been running pump and Q16 all of my plugs are specific to gas . I will toss in some 7's and see if the knock cleans up. I know this car has a lot more power in it, even at 22psi I know there is more there. I will be doing lots of tuning over the summer to get this thing dialed. If I have enough fuel I would bet money I can make it into the 800hp range on a DynoJet. But the big thing for me is way more torque and keeping the tune safe to daily drive.

Thanks for all the info.

 

[JayRolla]

Me and a lot of other guys here all run e85 and we have found around 22* timing up top is the sweet spot. Anymore doesnt make much more power and its not too safe.

 

[TheBoz]

So I got the car up to 25psi today, and now I really need to start tuning. The car made about the same power on 25psi as it did on 22psi.

So the first thing I did, lean out the AFR's 12.4-12.5 range. Next I started to increase the timing up top. The car started to make clean pulls and then it would missfire here an there. So now I need to change the plugs to the br7es.

So the take away is that the car would knock and not make power in the ~12.0 range and as soon as I started to lean it out a lot of the knock cleared up. The car also wants more timing in it, and it seems like I need to put a lot of work in on that once I have the AFR's super dialed.

 

[donniekak]

So I got the car up to 25psi today, and now I really need to start tuning. The car made about the same power on 25psi as it did on 22psi.

So the first thing I did, lean out the AFR's 12.4-12.5 range. Next I started to increase the timing up top. The car started to make clean pulls and then it would missfire here an there. So now I need to change the plugs to the br7es.

So the take away is that the car would knock and not make power in the ~12.0 range and as soon as I started to lean it out a lot of the knock cleared up. The car also wants more timing in it, and it seems like I need to put a lot of work in on that once I have the AFR's super dialed.

I have noticed misfires when running in the high 11's at higher boost. You have to remember a gas scale reading in the 11's, is actually an afr in the 7's. That is a lot of fuel to light off. Funny thing is, running the stock smic, i could run a 10.8 afr at 30 psi. With a fmic i get studdering, and misfires at anything under 12.0 at high boost. I guess the hot air helped with getting the rich mixture to light off.

 

[TheBoz]

So I am still working on my 25psi part of my map. When I posted before about 25psi and it making about the same power at 22psi. My car only saw an increase of about 20ft torque however it did gain a lot of HP, about 50hp. It pulled very clean to red line, and increased the torque through to red line. The aftermath of all that is that I am not seeing knock during spoolup and random knock around the 6-7k range. This all seems to be related to AFR's.

Because I have been tuning on Gas for so long, it is very hard to get out of that mindset and lean it out to close to 12.8-12.9. On gas that will blow up a motor on Cali 91. So as I have been tweaking on the map, and leaning it out more and more, I have noticed that when the car is above 12.5afr there is no knock, the engine gets very quiet. Now as the car starts to go fat, like when it goes from 12.5 to 12.2 you can see the engine noise increase. Which to me indicates that I need to go much leaner.

So here is my next round of testing.

1. I am pulling some timing at peek torque.
2. Spoolup AFR's in the 12.8-13.0 range
3. After spoolup taper from 13.0 to 12.6-12.7

I am also going to put in BPR7ES plugs gapped at .020 and see if that helps to clean up all of the knock. Once I have the knock figured out then it will be all timing.

So as the car sits at 25psi it is 610hp/430tq.

I will be doing more test pulls tonight .

So here is the log from today. As I have been leaning it out and trying to stablilize the AFR's. Still getting tons of knock but the car pulls stong as hell. I am still going to pull some more timing to see if it helps.

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[95blackGsTurbo]

Very nice. Once you understand E85 you see what it is really capable of

 

[TheBoz]

I have a COP, AEM TwinFire.

I was running BPR7ES gapped at .020. Tons of knock. Had to pull them. I might have needed to gap them tighter.

I switched to BR8ES gapped at .020. Now I have a massive missfire around 8400 rpm, so I will tighten up the gap a little more. I also go the AFR to be pretty consistant.

Peek Boost = 12.47
Peek Torque = 12.65
Peek RPM = 12.50

So it is pretty much 12.50 across the board. I am not sure why it would missfire up top except gap. It was only at 15 degrees of timing. Is it possible to have to little timing?

So my car goes from

Peek Boost = 5*
Peed RPM = 15.5*

Now the car is making the exact power it was at 22psi. With all the timing pulled, power has droped like a rock. So my main goal is to understand this knock stuff, and get that cleared up first before I mess with timing.

It seems that a lot of people run very little timing at peek boost/peek torque and then it ramps up pretty hard all the way to redline.

So I also suspect that my car might have had 1 gallon of q16 still in it after I drained the tank, and that could explain why the car was very knock resistant before. Now I am only my 3rd 5 gallon of e85 so I am pretty sure that all the q16 is finally gone.

 

[rx7ttlm]

.020 is a pretty small gap for that boost level / fuel. Try bumping it up to .024, and 15* of timing is pretty low also... If your on a dyno add a small amount of timing till it stops making more power then back it off 2 degrees or so.

 

[TheBoz]

.020 is a pretty small gap for that boost level / fuel. Try bumping it up to .024, and 15* of timing is pretty low also... If your on a dyno add a small amount of timing till it stops making more power then back it off 2 degrees or so.

Not trying to be a dick, but where did you read that and or what plugs and gap are you running E85. Also what turbo and how much boost(20g/3076). Most of the stuff I have found recommends a tighter gap with a hotter plug. This is stuff that is all over the evo forum.

Also as an FYI the car is on a 37r. So please keep that in mind when talking about timing. Just because a guy runs a 16g@25psi at 25* does not mean that I can run a 37r@25psi at 25*. I do agree that the timing is low, and if that is part of why it missfired then that would be awesome. I like adding timing .

About the Same AFR's for both
BPR7ES @ .020 car would knock all over the place. The car would idle better.
BR8ES @ .020 car would missfire up top only. Idle was a little ruffer.

Now when the car did missfire, it did it really bad. It started about 8200rpm 12.47afr 14.99*, then when the car missed and backfired really bad it was at 8500rpm 12.58afr 16.05*-2.8* from knock control(13.25). The car was at about 565hp/410ft.

 

[diambo4life]

I run BR8ES with a much tighter gap than you are and much more boost. I wouldn't run a hotter plug. AFR I ran all last year was between 12.4 and 12.9. Car loved it.

 

[TheBoz]

I run BR8ES with a much tighter gap than you are and much more boost. I wouldn't run a hotter plug. AFR I ran all last year was between 12.4 and 12.9. Car loved it.

What gap and how much boost, and what size turbo.

 

[jm1080]

I do not get when people say to run a hotter plug on e85..You need a colder plug. I ran 6's like others stated and a ton of knock! Then 7s and still knock. Then 8s and no knock. 8s are perfect on .026 gap.

 

[diambo4life]

What gap and how much boost, and what size turbo.

0.015"
35psi+
GT35r