Chooseing the turbo among other things...

[my_precious]

Hello,

I have been thinking about what turbo to go with. It seems 90% of the DSM community wants to make their car as fast as possible in a strait line. I've read a few things Greg Collier has posted and well, I think his car is amazing. For a FWD, he sure holds his own. I want to make my car build for road racing, but still drive it on the street. I have a job, and will be going to college in a couple months, so my DSM will become my daily driver in the next couple weeks and I'll only be able to go to the track on the weekends.

I know that talent is the most important thing to have when racing, and I already have plans to work on that. Besides just driving all the time, I plan on going to gingerman raceway in south haven michigan and enrolling in CGI racing school. its about 275 bucks and i recomend dsmer's near the area to try it out. anyways, besides open track days and the racing school, i want to make my car a bit faster. I dont plan on spending a crap load of money because i dont have it. Realistically I think im going to do the 1gb brake upgrade and maybe some brembo slotted rotors. I'll also use a good street pad and track pad for weekend track days. suspension will come a bit later and i think even before the turbo upgrade.

anyways, now that i've gotten off track:

my car has Dejon upper and lower intercooler pipes, i just ordered a Apexi N1 GT downpipe, and in a week or two im going to buy a DB stainless 3inch exhaust. i have an almost perfect condition 14b i bought used with 0 shaft play and new fluids all around. also have a k&n filter in the stock location. i also have an ACT 2600 clutch. now, I am not looking for high hp numbers, but i am looking to go as fast as possible. I know downforce plays a HUGE roll in road racing and in handling. I also know a good set of tires is the best upgrade you can do besides a better driver. Reading Greg collier's mods I've realized that he has the Buschur big 16G turbo customized with 8cm turbine. that must be a good turbo because well, he won last year and reading his stories its amazing how well he does for being FWD. He runs full hoosiers though as you know, and has the full JIC coil over suspension. Im thinking about running konis with Diamond Star Specialties Coil Over Kit. Its the cheaper route to go and should still make the car handle. JIC suspension or similar coil over set up would make me able to run with the big boys but its also alot more money than i have. I could do it, but then would be running an almost stock engine. I thought about doing a huge weight loss program with my car. I mean, not crazy like a 5 gallon fuel cell and sawlzall stuff...but removing bumpers, plastics, getting a lighter racing seat and removing the passenger seat. i already have the back seat removed, no a/c, nor do i have the heater core or fan system. however, that will be installed come winter time.

where am i going with this... well over the summer i should have about 2-3 grand to spend on my dsm. thats not including the exhaust im going to be buying shortly. When I go to gingerman, there'll be vipers, 911s, mustang cobras and possibly Cobra Rs (ive seen them before there), along with many other cars...even a dsm i saw once. Point is, I want to be a car that keeps up with those guys, and I'm wondering how I should go about doing that. I'll have my car for a long time and I know it wont come right away, but im wondering what i should do first and where my money should go. Engine upgrades, suspesnion upgrades, wheels and tires, brakes, or just spend all my money on going to the track and learning as much as i can. gas and brake pads cost money, as well as the entry fee of 60 bucks each time and 275 for the racing school (one day long).

since this is going to be my daily driver, i'd like to keep it as stock appearing as possible. i personally am not a fan of the wing look and i love the look of the stock dsm (besides the wheels). personally i'd like to keep people guessing when they find out how fast i am at the track, that is if i ever get to that point.

I'm just an 18 year old with a week of school left and a 99% finished dsm project and i'm getting eager is all. any help is greatly apreciated.


thanks guys, hopefully by reading and answering this stuff it could be a good tool for people to use when wanting to get into road racing with the goal of being as good as Greg someday

Zach

btw, this is also a good link for getting started: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225332

 

[underradar92]

I can't stress brake upgrades for road course work enough, especially RACE PADS. After that, seat time is your friend. BTW, Greg has upgraded turbo's to a FP3052.

 

[my_precious]

well i cant afford huge brakes and do the other things too, however, i could do the dual piston caliper/slotted rotor/race pad deal...

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

you don't necessarily need a Big Brake Kit. Since you are FWD you can upgrade to the dual piston AWD calipers. Get a good set of slotted rotors, Hawk HP+ pads, a set of SS brake lines and use a good brake fluid like Motul or ATE Super Blue.

 

[underradar92]

well i cant afford huge brakes and do the other things too, however, i could do the dual piston caliper/slotted rotor/race pad deal...

Don't waste cash on drilling or slotting, it only will make your rotors more prone to cracking. The d/p calipers should be ok, I was just making the point to use a true race pad, not HP street pads. Looks like you beat me to the punch, Martin! I guess I forgot to mention fluid too.

 

[skinnykenny84]

So wich dsm do you own?? Anyway, you were asking about turbo upgrade and well I think the T-28 (ported of course) is a fine all around turbo. You mentioned that you will still be driving it o the street as well as the track. I can tell you from experience that the T-28 will spool alot quicker and hold boost till redline. Basicly mine spools the same if not faster than the stock T-2 small and packs way more punch. Seems to me that in road racing with all the stop and go and what not you would want a turbo that can get to full boost quick as possible.

 

[underradar92]

So wich dsm do you own?? Anyway, you were asking about turbo upgrade and well I think the T-28 (ported of course) is a fine all around turbo. You mentioned that you will still be driving it o the street as well as the track. I can tell you from experience that the T-28 will spool alot quicker and hold boost till redline. Basicly mine spools the same if not faster than the stock T-2 small and packs way more punch. Seems to me that in road racing with all the stop and go and what not you would want a turbo that can get to full boost quick as possible.

I thought I saw that he had a 95, but after scanning quickly I can't find it either. Finish your profile, Precious! Btw, bigger turbo's (within reason of course) work great on road courses, since the engine is seldom below 4000 rpm or more, & the split second of spool is MORE than made up for between corners. Oh & Precious already has a good 14b, which is nothing if not a quick spooler! Not sure how it compares to a t28 though.

 

[Greg Collier]

It’s good that you’re looking at this through a realistic point of view. When I first started my upgrade path on the Laser I began simple changing to a K&N filter and manual boost controller. My suspension was the next modification going to the reasonably priced AGX’s. Finally I put a set of Khumo tires on all four corners and began driving every possible track event I could find.

Auto-crossing is one of the best and least expensive avenues to use in learning about car control. You also get free instruction from some pretty descent drivers. If you can afford a high performance driving school on an actual road course to boot, your learning curve is going to excel that much quicker. Even pro-drivers go back to school regularly to hone their skills. It’s always good to get an objective point of view of your technique because there’s always room for improvement. If at any point you think you know it all then you might as well quit.

Seat time is the best modification you can do initially. A good driver can make even the slowest and (not most balanced) car competitive. This concept applies to drag racers too. With anything, it’s the amount of energy and diligence you apply to become successful at it. It’s all about your passion. To actually be successful doing it drives that passion even further, and how cool is that?

 

[my_precious]

Heh, sweet guys. I didnt check my pms or anything for one day and I've got all these responses. Right now my car isnt drivable because I'm having issues with my clutch that i can not figure out. However, its a 1990 Talon TSI AWD 5 spd. I have 1gb rims on it with eagle gt2s. Braided steel brake lines but stock 1 caliper pistons. I bought the car not running and without a turbo, but since then i have bought a 14b with absolutely no shaft play, i bought dejon 2.5in intercooler pipes upper and lower, and i have a k&n filter in the stock location. The car came with a ACT 2600 clutch and no backseat, heater assembly or a/c, and im not sure if it has a short throw shifter but the bushings have been replaced with metal ones, and on the tranny side it has roller blade bearings. basically there is no slop, and he had a carbon fiber momo shift knob and hand brake lever, so the shifter isnt super tall either (adding to the hard shift feel due to less leverage). Powersteering works wonderful, i have redline gear lube in the differentials and valvoline gear oil in the tranny. I'm gonna replace the tranny oil and the engine oil with synthetic, not sure about which type, probably mobile one. I just have cheap stuff in there right now for the break in. I have the clutch and brakes bled and the brakes are very stiff the only thing i have left to do is get my clutch problems figured out and the exhaust system, which i just bought a apex'i N1 GT 3in downpipe (2.5 till the flex section, 3 inch after and stainless)...and after i get teh car drivable im going to sell my lebaron and buy a david buscher 3 inch stainless system for the cat back. not gonna run a cat though, the GT eliminates it.

 

[skinnykenny84]

Man it sounds like your on the rigt track, further than I expected. Just need to learn how to post and start threads, I know it sounds rediculous but there is a right or wrong way. First off you got to put your vehicle info on your profile with list of mods. Anyway, listen to Greg, if he doesnt know it chances are nobody does! As far as turbo selection, it may cost more, but try experimenting with diff turbo combos. Diff setups for diff cars and styles of driving etc...

 

[drivemusicnow]

Let me first say that I'm happy you're looking to do HPDE/Road course stuff.

From a college student, let me tell you that to do this costs a lot of money. I started my project 93 GSX about a year and a half ago. It hasn't moved since. Money is extremely tight during college and you should realize this ahead of time.

I'd suggest doing the basics first. Keep the 14b on there as it really is a decent turbo. People have done very well on them.

Things you will want to focus on:
Driving time (most important. like Greg said, autocross, track, whatever you can go out and do)
I'd keep your car how it is for a while. I would probably upgrade to the AWD brakes, and have seperate street and track pads.
I would also buy another set of wheels with some good tires that will give you grip. Keep a nice longer lasting tire on the car for the street, stickier tire for the track.

Other than that, you should focus on cooling (oil cooler, maybe a trans cooler, see how your radiator does on the track), Maintanence (new sparkplugs, wires, do a boost leak test, compression test, check cooling systems etc) and tuning (something to tune with, ways to monitor the engine. a wideband 02 sensor, oil temp, oil pressure, logging etc)

Save up your money for a while. Then spend it on the things you feel you need first. When you get to the track you'll figure out which areas your car is lacking the most. Maybe it is power, maybe it is suspension, maybe it is cooling etc. Spend your money on those, until you have eliminated it as a weakness, take your car out again, and figure out what the weakest point is then.

This will save you from the position I'm in, where I have to save up to build the entire car from top to bottom at once. It is MUCH harder to build/tune when you're starting with everything brand new. Plus it takes a while for college kids to have enough money to do everything... believe me. I am a co-op student which means I make okay money and should be (ina month or so) getting my car running again after a year and a half.

(I also suggest not using a dsm that you're modifying as a daily driver.. however there's about a thousand people on this board who disagree )

 

[underradar92]

More good advice ^^^^ Drive, thanks for helping to fill my obvious gaps. I'd have to agree strongly on the "dd" status too. My DSM is a summer dd, by design to keep costs from going unchecked but I actually have 2 backup vehicles, 'cause ANY project can tie itself up sometimes, especially a dsm.

 

[my_precious]

I was thinking about going with a disco potato turbo. I'd have to do some custom work to get it to fit and bolt up but it is a dual ball bearing turbo with vertually no lag. I'm not sure what the number code is but Garret makes it.

Anyways, i cant afford to have two cars and drive them both. Right now I have a lebaron and the DSM but the DSM is in the garage not drivable or insured yet. I am going to be in college this fall so whatever money i make this summer is going to my car and college. It all depends really.

As for driving and getting skills, i was really thinking about selling my dsm for about 3 grand (after i finished getting it drivable with exhaust etc) and then buying a shifter kart. there was one for sale used a bout 3 hours from my house for 2600 iirc. Anyways, I eliminated this idea because even though its a great tool and all, I cant exactly drive it to work or school.

Anyways, another thing i was thinking about was a seat. I dont want to spend 600 bucks on a seat, at least not till i get the other stuff out of the way, but I was thinking maybe they make a fiberglass or plastic seat without padding that just bolts up. I know they have those summit aluminum ones but i dont want one of those...too much bucket to that.

 

[Greg Collier]

I am going to be in college this fall so whatever money i make this summer is going to my car and college. It all depends really.

College first... everything else will follow! (especially money for racing)

Anyways, another thing i was thinking about was a seat.

If you absolutely have to have a seat... here's an excellent,safe, and approved road racing seat, for a couple of hundred bucks!

http://www.ultrashieldrace.com/prod.php?id=7

 

[my_precious]

Do you just run the stockers? I figured getting a light seat and removing the passenger side for track driving would save a huge ammount of weight and also keep me planted. the stock seats do however have really nice side bolsters.

 

[my_precious]

Another reason i decided against a kart is that i wanted to be part of the dsm community and race with an actual car, instead of a small go kart.

 

[underradar92]

Another reason i decided against a kart is that i wanted to be part of the dsm community and race with an actual car, instead of a small go kart.

I feel all warm & fuzzy inside now. If you really have to use it as a dd, do plenty of research when you make changes & try to only make one change at a time. It cuts down on diagnosis problems.

 

[terefic181]

That's a fine seat Greg.

my_precious, if your thinking of changing seats, and your going to be running NASA HPDE, be sure and read the CCR for NASA under the HPDE section. This will give you an idea of what you can and can't do to your car. I believe you will find that in order to change to an aluminum seat you will need a seat back brace. The seat back brace must be attatched to the rollcage. If you leave things stock, you can run your car as is, if you change things like seats and cages they must then conform to the race standards, which are much more stringent. So now your in it for a cage and a seat back brace in order to sport a new seat. It adds up . By the way, I don't know of a palstic type seat that is allowed at this time, if you purchase one be sure it is (SCCA, FIA or NASA) approved, and explore what supporting mods you might need to implement, in order to use it.

Best of luck with getting started, your gonna love it, I know.


http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

Tom

 

[Greg Collier]

Do you just run the stockers? I figured getting a light seat and removing the passenger side for track driving would save a huge ammount of weight and also keep me planted. the stock seats do however have really nice side bolsters.

No... I run one of those real expensive road race seats you were talking about. I was just commenting about if the seat is a priority then here's a descent seat with-in a descent price range. You should put more emphasis in other areas to reach your goals

 

[Greg Collier]

Another reason i decided against a kart is that i wanted to be part of the dsm community and race with an actual car, instead of a small go kart.

Kart racing is a really good way in getting a seat in professional racing. The drivers usually start at a much younger age but ya never know, you might be a natural! Every F-1 driver started in cart and Michael Schumacher is the highest paid athlete in the world...

I believe anything is possible, any time, for anyone

 

[JOEY A]

I wouldnt spend all that money on a Garret turbo right now, do the driving schools and some autocross events. Then start moving onto a road course, Cooling and breaks are the biggest thing you should be looking at.........


And if your dead set on a bigger turbo, A T28 from a S15 Silva from the nissan crowd should be up to your needs, it can make 300hp and its Daul Ball bearing. Its also not alot of money compared to the Disco turbo. Look it up, it uses a T3 flange im almost sure of that, really you should focus on cooling,breaks, and sus....Power can wait

If you want to stay in the DSM turbo world, why not use a T28(FP) or a small 16G and port it.



Your on a budget rember that, so take baby steps

 

[my_precious]

Yeah, after I get this clutch figured out, I believe I'm going to buy a boost gauge and controller, and a SAFC2. That way I can up the boost to like 14 psi and make a few extra ponies there. After that stuff I'm gonna upgrade to the 2 piston calipers and rotors. I figured with alot of track driving some slotted rotors would be really good at eliminating brake fade. I guess not though? The other thing I'm going to do is put in all synthetic fluids after the break in, because well, exxon mobile 1.75 dollar a quart oil isnt exactly good...

For the seat, I know I dont want to spend money on that until im finished with other areas because its just not on my list of priorities. I know a guy I might be able to buy a used one off of or a deal might pop up somewhere but for now I'm just gonna run with the stock seat. Besides, 40 lbs isnt much when compaired with driving skills.

For the gokart idea...I raced a gokart at this really neat track in florida when i went for spring break. They were race karts, but heavier because of the bumper guards and the roll bar type of deal for the back rest. Also, they were governed because little kids were using them. Anyways, getting on with the story, the track had a hill and a few really sharp corners. I was REALLY good at driving the thing and came in first from last every time except for the last race (out of 4) because a kid stalled out in front of me for like 2 min out of the 5 you race for. Now, I was racing against mostly 10 year olds but i thought it was good that i was going from 12-15th place (not sure exactly how many people their were) to first, and there were 3 big two seater gokarts for little kids and their parents....so i had to avoid traffic too! hehe

I've also had some encounters on the road with ice and slush....where I'd spin out going 60+ miles an hour....and I recovered perfectly. I'm really wondering if I have a hidden tallent somewheres. For now though, its just a hobby, and I cant wait to start driving!

 

[underradar92]

As far as slotted rotors goes, I'm not convinced that slotting is necessary with modern pad compounds. I've got slotted rotors now and the screwie noise/feel they have kinda bugs me. I'm trying non-slotted next time. Spend the cash elsewhere for now, like entry fee!

 

[my_precious]

Or a good breathable helmet....gonna need one of those!

 

[Greg Collier]

Or a good breathable helmet....gonna need one of those!

Spare no expense on a good helmet... good gray matter contol is a must