[RESOLVED] Idle problem after installing Cyclone manifold

[Oldsid]

I just finished installing a cyclone manifold using my original throttle body and an RPM switch. When I tried to start the car, the RPM shoots to 3000 and then drops quickly and then dies. Before this install, the car was running fine and I never had any idle problem. I checked all the manifold line to make sure that they are either connected properly or plugged. I only used OEM gaskets for the manifold and throttle body. I took the RPM reading from the power transistor wiring(Pin 4 white wire that goes to pin 109 on ECU) and I used a soldering connector .
I have checked and rechecked for anything that I may have forgotten but everything was reconnected properly and I am really stumped by this problem. I would like to know what would happen if the RPM feed to the ECU is bad. I will recheck the soldering tomorrow to see if it is the cause. I should also add that I removed the EGR and plugged off the lines on the throttle body.
Any ideas of what could cause this problem?

[Oldsid]

I rechecked for obvious points of leak like an unplugged or loose vaccum line but could not find anything. I did reuse the injector insulators and I can't check for boost leak (no tools) but I don't think that a small leak would cause this problem.
Any help/suggestions are really appreciated.

[turboglenn]

ONe thing i found when i put mine on was that the TB didn't seal very well, I forget what i had to do but i remember fidlling with it a bit, also the different manifold design had me reprogramming all my ISC controls on my haltech ECU after installing it as well


Just check for continuity fromthe wire at the ignitor to the end of it at the ECU to be sure the ECU is getting signal (actually, not sure on the OEM ecu but I think that white wire is just for the tach IIRC)

[TSI_93]

Have you done a boost leak test?

Re read the 2nd post, go make a boost leak tester, costs less than 10$ to do so.

[Oldsid]

Turboglenn, I checked for continuity and it is good. I even put a 12V through and a test light to have a second confirmation.
TSI_93, I will check for boost leak later. The way the engine dies is the same as if it has a massive leak, like if a vacuum line is not connected but I checked everything and nothing is disconnected or unplugged.

[DSM's 4 life]

Originally Posted by Oldsid

Turboglenn, I checked for continuity and it is good. I even put a 12V through and a test light to have a second confirmation.
TSI_93, I will check for boost leak later. The way the engine dies is the same as if it has a massive leak, like if a vacuum line is not connected but I checked everything and nothing is disconnected or unplugged.

Your car should still idle with a boost leak I have my ic pipe not connected because I am waiting on my gm maf and it doesn't stall on me

[Oldsid]

Originally Posted by DSM's 4 life

Your car should still idle with a boost leak I have my ic pipe not connected because I am waiting on my gm maf and it doesn't stall on me

I agree that a small boost leak will not cause an idle problem like mine. On the other hand a big vacuum leak will make the engine not hold idle. I am going to check the hidden inter-cooler piping and the BCS line even though I have not taken them off but just in case.I will also check my TPS signal output and see if it is within specs.

[Oldsid]

Any ideas out there?

[turboglenn]

check brake booster too

[Oldsid]

Originally Posted by turboglenn

check brake booster too

Thanks Turboglen, I have checked that too. I also did check the TPS, the ICS and they all are to specs. I tightened the accelerator cable to see if I can get the engine running and it partially worked. When I started the engine, it shoots to 3000rpm then drops to about 600to 650rpm and then goes up to 3000 rpm but it does not die. It kept cycling with the higher rpm dropping down a little bit more as it warmed up but runs like crap at the low end. I stopped the engine and I think it may be that the change of the manifold has caused the base idle to be off the range of control of the ECU.
I know how to adjust the base idle but it can be done only when the engine is warm. My battery is almost dead and I need to recharge it before I can try anything. I need the battery fully charged so I can get enough oil pressure in the engine before I start it to minimize wear when it shoots to 3k rpm when I crank it. I will do that tomorrow and hope it will start and idle normally.

[Oldsid]

I finally had the time to do some tests and here is where I am right now:
I was able to warm up the engine by tightening the accelerator cable as I mentioned before and it still runs as if the engine is going to die at any moment. I tried to set the base idle as per procedure but I could not get it idle properly and there was still an erratic surge as if the ECU is trying to adjust the RPM. I do not know if that should happen when you follow the procedure. I was able to get it to idle at about 900 RPM by adjusting the screw for the base idle setting but it was still running bad. I then checked my AFR (LC1) reading and it was stuck on maximum lean and the boost gauge (Greddy) was showing about vacuum around 4 to 6 in HG.
I did a boost leak and I was only able to see a minute leak around the cylinder #3 injector insulator. I was not able to do a proper test because as soon as I close the valve of my tester, the pressure inside the manifold drops to zero. However, I had enough airflow and pressure to hold around 15 psi when the valve to the air tank was open. Note that I have a 20 Gallon compressor and the regulator was adjusted to 40 psi when I did the test.
I could not get a set of injector insulators to replace them but I still do not believe that such a small leak can be the cause of the problem. The lean condition is clearly a sign of a big vacuum leak or perhaps a faulty (stuck open) FIAV. I will do the "block the FIAV" mode that is shown in a tech. article and see what happens. If nothing works, I will remove the cyclone intake and check if it is warped. If it is , I will have machined and trued and check again. Is there any other things that should be checked before I go and remove the intake?

[Lil' Shaun]

I tried to run one on mine, it made the car idle at 2k.

[Oldsid]

Originally Posted by Lil' Shaun

I tried to run one on mine, it made the car idle at 2k.

What did you do? Did you put back your original manifold?

[muddfisher85]

I have one but I did the wastegate actuator mod not the rpm switch like you. I have never had any issues with mine. I just didnt want to run into any issues like you, that whys I have it run off vaccumm not the ecu. I just modded a stock t 25 actuator to be a little shorter and made a mounting bracket.

[Oldsid]

Originally Posted by muddfisher85

I have one but I did the wastegate actuator mod not the rpm switch like you. I have never had any issues with mine. I just didnt want to run into any issues like you, that whys I have it run off vaccumm not the ecu. I just modded a stock t 25 actuator to be a little shorter and made a mounting bracket.

When I got the engine to "idle", the cyclone actuator actually closes the runners. However, since I can not get the engine to work properly, I can not check if the cyclone actually opens at the preset 4100 RPM. I do not think that it will be a problem if I can get the engine to run properly. The reason I run the cyclone actuator as I do is because I had the RPM switch and a spare solenoid.

[muddfisher85]

When I first put mine on I just zip tied the flapper open before I had time to fab up the actuator. Does it help the engine if you open just leave it stuck open? Im just curious cause I did have one that the shaft locked up on and it was causing the leak as the shaft seal was bad. I just got another manifold and made 2 into one. Where did you get the gasket? They dont make them anymore. The only place you can find one still is jnztuning. Your sure you assembled it right? Did the flappers work good when you had it apart?

[Oldsid]

Originally Posted by muddfisher85

When I first put mine on I just zip tied the flapper open before I had time to fab up the actuator. Does it help the engine if you open just leave it stuck open? Im just curious cause I did have one that the shaft locked up on and it was causing the leak as the shaft seal was bad. I just got another manifold and made 2 into one. Where did you get the gasket? They dont make them anymore. The only place you can find one still is jnztuning. Your sure you assembled it right? Did the flappers work good when you had it apart?

My cyclone intake came assembled and it also included white the vacuum pot for the actuator. It looked good so I did not disassemble it and when I did the boost leak test, I did not see any leak at the gaskets. I will try to check the actuator shaft for leaks but I am not sure if I can because it is not easily accessible.

[muddfisher85]

I would say its a tuning issue cause your getting less air cause of the small ports at idle. This is why I said try it with the flapper zip tied open if that fixes the issue its in the tuning. I had to redo almost my entire tune after installing it. Have you tried tunning it and fixing your afr. Mine hates life when the afr is off at idle. Even with the flapper wide open I still had to tune it to get it to idle good and again after I installed the actuator.

[Oldsid]

Muddfisher85, It is very simple to get both runners open. All I need to do is just unplug the vacuum line to the cyclone actuator since the runner is closed by vacuum. I will try that and see if it helps me set the idle speed with both runners open.

[Oldsid]

Muddfisher85, I have tried with both runners open and there is no change. I blocked the FIAV and I warmed the engine and I tried again to adjust the base idle. I can get it to idle at about 900 rpm but it run bad and my AFR is completely at the maximum lean and the vacuum is between 6 to 8 in. I also found a small leak where the top part of the manifold bolts to the mid section. I am getting really frustrated and I am going to remove the cyclone , change the gaskets if I can still get them from JNZ Tuning, machine it if not true and then pressure test it before I will install it again.

[Oldsid]

I removed the cyclone manifold and dis-assembled it and changed all the gasket (I got them for JNZ Tuning) and I also replaced the 8x14x4 actuator seal ( thanks snowboarder714) and I also resurfaced the cylinder head side of the manifold. I tested the whole manifold with the throttle body to 25 psi with no leaks before installing it. I installed the manifold and put new injector seals and fired it up. It started at first try! It runs really great and all I need is to finish the wiring and check if cyclone actuates at the right RPM. I don't know for sure where it was leaking from but I suspect it was a combination of small leaks that were corrected with the rebuilt.

[Tiki2777]

Originally Posted by Oldsid

I removed the cyclone manifold and dis-assembled it and changed all the gasket (I got them for JNZ Tuning) and I also replaced the 8x14x4 actuator seal ( thanks snowboarder714) and I also resurfaced the cylinder head side of the manifold. I tested the whole manifold with the throttle body to 25 psi with no leaks before installing it. I installed the manifold and put new injector seals and fired it up. It started at first try! It runs really great and all I need is to finish the wiring and check if cyclone actuates at the right RPM. I don't know for sure where it was leaking from but I suspect it was a combination of small leaks that were corrected with the rebuilt.

Wow that's what i was going to tell you to check lol. Glad you got that working. How long ago did you order from JNZ? Do you have the link to the part on their website (i for whatever reason can't find it)?

Oh, and random question, did you clean up this intake at all like using a hot tank? If so, Do you have to remove the butterflies (if thats even possible) to clean it correctly?

[jayson427]

are you 100% sure you torqued down all the bolts in the proper pattern? you have to have a vacuum leak some where.

[Oldsid]

Originally Posted by Tiki2777

Wow that's what i was going to tell you to check lol. Glad you got that working. How long ago did you order from JNZ? Do you have the link to the part on their website (i for whatever reason can't find it)?

Oh, and random question, did you clean up this intake at all like using a hot tank? If so, Do you have to remove the butterflies (if thats even possible) to clean it correctly?

The part is not listed and I don't have the part numbers. I just called JNZTuning and ordered all the gaskets for the cyclone as well as for the throttle body to the cyclone and to the elbow and the main one to the cylinder head. I ordered a Friday morning and received them Tuesday through express mail. That is is really quick and it is for Canada!
I was only able to remove the shaft that has the seal. The other is really better left in place because of the problem I had to remove the butterflies. The little screws were a pain and I sheared 3 out four with a screwdriver! It also almost impossible to find those little screws so I had to rethread the shaft and use new screws. I just chased the existing thread with a 6-32 tap and used 6-32x3/8" stainless steel screws. The screws were sticking out through the shaft so I marked them and removed the excess length. I used a Dremel and cut them to length and then installed and filed them flush with the shaft. You have to be careful so as no to damage the shaft. for the final installation , I used loctite on the screws to make sure they don't loosen up and go to the cylinders.
As for cleaning, I used brake cleaner when I dis-assembled the cyclone and cleaned everything thoroughly and dried them with compressed air. It is very easy to reach all the inside to clean the cyclone once dis-assembled and there is no need to hot tank it unless you want to paint it. If you need more information just PM and I give more details about what I did.

[snowborder714]

Originally Posted by Oldsid

I was only able to remove the shaft that has the seal. The other is really better left in place because of the problem I had to remove the butterflies. The little screws were a pain and I sheared 3 out four with a screwdriver! It also almost impossible to find those little screws so I had to rethread the shaft and use new screws. I just chased the existing thread with a 6-32 tap and used 6-32x3/8" stainless steel screws. The screws were sticking out through the shaft so I marked them and removed. Iused a Dremel and cut them to length and then installed and filed them flush with the shaft. You have to be careful so as no to damage the shaft. for the final installation , I used loctite on the screws to make sure they don't loosen up and go to the cylinders.

An impact driver makes removing those screws much easier. I think they might be the same size as throttle body shaft screws, but it is possible to find them. I can get the exact size at some point if anyone would like.

[Oldsid]

Originally Posted by snowborder714

An impact driver makes removing those screws much easier. I think they might be the same size as throttle body shaft screws, but it is possible to find them. I can get the exact size at some point if anyone would like.

Those screws seems to be really soft (low strength) otherwise how could I just break them with small screw driver!
By the way, I can confirm that the shaft seals do not leak at 30 psi because I pressure tested the intake before installing it.

[Bmxr152]

Originally Posted by Oldsid

I finally had the time to do some tests and here is where I am right now:
I was able to warm up the engine by tightening the accelerator cable as I mentioned before and it still runs as if the engine is going to die at any moment. I tried to set the base idle as per procedure but I could not get it idle properly and there was still an erratic surge as if the ECU is trying to adjust the RPM. I do not know if that should happen when you follow the procedure. I was able to get it to idle at about 900 RPM by adjusting the screw for the base idle setting but it was still running bad. I then checked my AFR (LC1) reading and it was stuck on maximum lean and the boost gauge (Greddy) was showing about vacuum around 4 to 6 in HG.
I did a boost leak and I was only able to see a minute leak around the cylinder #3 injector insulator. I was not able to do a proper test because as soon as I close the valve of my tester, the pressure inside the manifold drops to zero. However, I had enough airflow and pressure to hold around 15 psi when the valve to the air tank was open. Note that I have a 20 Gallon compressor and the regulator was adjusted to 40 psi when I did the test.
I could not get a set of injector insulators to replace them but I still do not believe that such a small leak can be the cause of the problem. The lean condition is clearly a sign of a big vacuum leak or perhaps a faulty (stuck open) FIAV. I will do the "block the FIAV" mode that is shown in a tech. article and see what happens. If nothing works, I will remove the cyclone intake and check if it is warped. If it is , I will have machined and trued and check again. Is there any other things that should be checked before I go and remove the intake?

I had the exact same problem with mine when i installed. Wideband read max lean and stumbled on idle, but normal cruising speed it was 14.3-15.1 I did a boost leak and found a leak on the back side, so i decided to take it off and real seal it. Im back on the 1g intake and its back to normal. I still have not put the re sealed cyclone back on though, but you should know a lean condition out of load will do no damage but cause a misfire and save gas. The only time it causes damage is when the car is under load.