Good 4g63 header

[Geovannie]

I posted this on the other board but I'm posting this on this one also since there was some recent talk about this here.


http://www.full-race.com/dsm/

Geoff is building them now. This one is not the traditional 18 gauge thin wall stuff either. It is forged 8 gauge thick wall stuff. With all the recent talk about tubular manifolds and many people putting them down because of past experiences with a cheap ass header I wanted to post a link to somebody that knows how to build them and has kept turbo honda guys happy for years.

 

[cmc]

Man......that thing looks weird.

 

[jdbTSi]

Anyone know how much?

 

[RocketDSM]

I would be a little worried about the sharp corners it appears to have. That seems to be asking for a hotspot to crack it open. If anyone has info on durability, please let us know.

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

will that even let you close your hood???

Also whats up with the cracks from the bolt holes? What would be the purpose of those?

Ed

 

[FFgeoff]

Hey guys thanks very much for the interest in my manifolds. some brief info:

This manifold is a medium-long runner equal length manifold with a defined point inside the collector known as a merge collector. This collector combined with the long runner is basically good for a rough estimate of 50 ft-lbs of torque over a standard turbo manifold.

The manifold itself is made of forged 8 gauge (.160") thick tubing. Most headers are made from 16 or 18 guage tube (about 0.030") which is why they crack so much. The tubing is 304 stainless steel and is certified to contain 3000 psi of highly corrosive/caustic gasses at ~2000 degrees. The flanges are all 1/2" thick and can be ordered with either a t3 or a t4 turbine flange. The welding is done by a certified aircraft exhaust welder using 308L rod (TIG of course). wastegate positioning is done custom on each order according to customer preference.

As far as this concern:

Originally posted by RocketDSM
I would be a little worried about the sharp corners it appears to have. That seems to be asking for a hotspot to crack it open. If anyone has info on durability, please let us know.

i appreciate the point you bring up, as you are clearly educated on what a hotspot is and their potential for cracking. I think you should see the manifold in person, there are certainly no sharp hot-spot inducing edges. If it appears this way, it is purely an illusion due to the camera. All the edges are contoured at 88-90 degrees and chamfered before welding. After all welding has occured, the flange is severed in 3 spots to give each runner it's own ability to flex instead of crack. After this the flange is fly cut on a bridgeport to make it perfectly flat. The hood can close. The slots on the flange for the holes are just so that when the flange heats up it can expand rather than shear the bolt in half (this does happen).

The price on that manifold is 950. If you have any other questions, feel free to email me at [email protected], or just respond on here. Thanks again. If you are interested in seeing the difference between my tubing and standard tubing ill get a pic up...

 

[RocketDSM]

Thanks for the answer and the compliment. It's actually from many years a pushrod engine builder and seeing what happens to their headers.

 

[DSMu4ia]

Can you make them with a regular Mitsu flange, or is it going to be only for t3/t4 setups? Also, does the turbo rest in the stock location, or is it out towards the radiator more?

Thanks.

 

[FFgeoff]

i can certainly make them using a mitsu flange if requested. I use the garret flanges more often than the mitsu simply because they have a wider variety of compressor wheels to choose from.

This manifold's turbo flange is in the *identical* location as the stock manifold. I will take a picture of the two sitting side by side tomorrow to show you. The angle is identical, as is the spacing. This is to facilitate the external wastegate mounting to the front of the collector. If you would prefer i can move the collector out toward the radiator a bit more, that is no problem.

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by FFgeoff
i can certainly make them using a mitsu flange if requested. I use the garret flanges more often than the mitsu simply because they have a wider variety of compressor wheels to choose from.

This manifold's turbo flange is in the *identical* location as the stock manifold. I will take a picture of the two sitting side by side tomorrow to show you. The angle is identical, as is the spacing. This is to facilitate the external wastegate mounting to the front of the collector. If you would prefer i can move the collector out toward the radiator a bit more, that is no problem.

thats one kick ass header hmmm thnking....thinking...thinking

i might have to get me one of those and damn it i dont care if i need it or not

 

[FFgeoff]

You can see what a traditional thin-wall stainless steel header is made out of, and the thick material we use. Everytime the wall thickness doubles, the strength increases four times, and the wall thickness is 5.2 times thicker...

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[Ludachris]

Okay Geoff, it sounds like you've done about $950 worth of advertising, so I'd say you owe me one now...

At what point will people benefit from one of these? Obviously, many will not need it, but what mods should absolutely be done to take advantage of this header?

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

That thing is friggin SWEET!! I want to see that on a car.

Later,

 

[RocketDSM]

Judging on general header theory we should be able to tell that anyone with one of the larger turbos will benefit greatly from this. It should also allow more aggressive compressor wheels to be run since exhaust velocity will be higher on the turbine side.

 

[FFgeoff]

Obviously, a traditional manifold works, and gets the job done. However, there are shortcomings inherent to the cast manifold design and gains to be made by streamlining the exhaust flow and increasing the volumetric efficiency while decreasing pumping losses of the engine.

Someone who would benefit from a header like this would be someone who wants to spool their turbo a bit faster, run a larger turbo with no drawback, demands better throttle response, wants a manifold that will outlast any tubular manifold on the market, or simply wants something that looks cool. Most of our customers always say that once they pop their hoods, people's jaws drop.

To really take advantage of a header like this, a bigger cam can be run along with headwork to maximize the flow of the engine. Usually large gains can be made in the engines ability to flow air but if the exhaust manifold is restrictive, those gains are negated and the power level does not increase dramatically. Using computational fluid dynamics (CFD) the choke flow is induced at ~1300 cfm. I dont see anyone getting near that level of flow with a 2 liter engine so its safe to say that this manifold will never be out flowed by the engine.

A good example of this was on a honda i worked on a couple years ago which used an F-Max log manifold. This car made (trying to remember) ~ 321 Hp and 240 tq at the wheels at 10 psi. Then the guy used a JG equal length manifold. Power went to about 340 and 265/270 tq. After a while the jg manifold cracked and he put the fmax back on. Then the motor was built, headwork done, he used a big cam (Type R) and a 60-1 turbo. Power went up to ~400 hp and ~270 TQ at 20 psi. Dissapointed, he switched the manifold out for a kooks equal length header (which also cracked on him, many times, including the wastegate falling off) and made ~460 HP and 320 TQ. I am going to call him and ask for the old dyno plots, but its apparent that as you push the engine more and more the manifold does become a restriction, and cannot handle the increased flow.

Sorry so long, but i hope this clears some stuff up. Thanks for the positive feedback.

 

[95GST]

How is the clearance after adding an external wastegate? Also, where can an EGT probe be mounted? There is certainly enough meat for a fitting. I guess it can come with a 1/8 NPT port right?

Do you think you will test it on a DSM on the dyno, before and after HP number, same boost, that would be great

I thought most of the time it is the welds that start to crack, due to the stress of supporting the turbo, not just from heat, care to comment on that?

Looks good, but I would like to see more real testing data.

 

[KenTSIII]

When you weld thicker material... the welds have to be thicker also & penetrate better... so I think w/ the thick material... that the welds shouldn't be a problem.

 

[ILOSE]

First I'd like to say that is a very nice piece and it would look killer under my hood. But my gripe is, what is up with the ass raping when it comes to the price? Every damn company is taking advantage of import racers and robbing them when it comes to parts. WTF? Lets take crower for example, you can get a set of 8 rods for a V8 for 4-500 dollars, but to get "4" for our 4G63 it'll set you back $700. again WTF? Is the process so different to make them? NO! alls they have to do is make a few adjustments on the lathe or whatever and poof new rods! I'm sure it's a little more then that but is that worth the raping that the conaumer takes?

Hopefully this pic shows and if it does, would you buy this header pictured below if it were less than $500 and nickel plated?

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[Geovannie]

Originally posted by ILOSE


Hopefully this pic shows and if it does, would you buy this header pictured below if it were less than $500 and nickel plated?

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Nope.

 

[KenTSIII]

I know the import guys get raped over performance parts. The reasoning is that the import market is nowhere near as big as the V8 market. To make a set of 4g63 rods you need to start w/ a mold (or whatever they use to forge them) ... Lets say you sell 1000 sets of rods for this motor... vs the same cost to make a mold for a 302 motor and you'd sell 40,000 sets. It's simple supply & demand. I know it seems shitty.. but that's the way it is.

 

[FFgeoff]

For an EGT probe, no bung needs to be welded onto this manifold. In fact all you need to do is to drill a 27/64" hole and then tap it to 1/8" NPT. There is more than enough meat to ensure postive thread engagement. many customers request this and i do this free of charge on any of the runners (#3 is the best imo).

The external wastegate will fit on the front of the manifold between the radiator and the collector with any flange you specify. I have no intentions of doing any testing of the manifolds on my own. I have two DSM customers who will be doing the testing i assume, but they are changing many variables including turbos, injectors, fuel systems etc, so not much will be repeatable/comparable.

The reason the welds will not crack is becuase there is so much here. Each bead has about 1.75-2" of rod in it. I would say that each manifold has about 10 sticks of 308L rod in it. That is a lot of weld. Also the reason the welds crack is becuase there is a tremendous amount of residual stress left over in the manifold after it is welded. We sever the flange into 4 seperate pieces to relieve all stress and then fly cut it to make it perfectly smooth. This makes for a stress-free manifold with very heavy duty welds. This material can withstand the harshest environments of a chemical plant so an automotive engine is cake by comaprison. Each bit of material is chamfered before welding to give the weld maximum penetration and surface area. I have yet to have a single manifold fail in any manner.

ILOSE: The turbo manifold you posted is made by turbo performance of nevada. This manifold is made from 18 gauge mild steel which is *MIG* welded to a stamped steel clover style collector. I am very familiar with this manifold and i also know how they function. I installed one on a car a while back only to have it crack upon initial startup. He had sent it back 4 times before giving up. Another customer installed a custom kit using this manifold only to have his brand new turbo fall off the car and drag on the ground. The mig welds are far too hot while looking like crap, and the material is as week as they come. The flanges are thin 3/8" material and if you look on their site the collector sells for $5.99. The collectors we use sell for 350$. There is a very big difference, and the old addage "you get what you pay for" certianly applies.

If you feel you are being "ass raped" than i can assure you, my manifolds are not for you. The manifolds take me about a week each to make and weld and the material is quite a bit more expensive than any material any other company is using. Each manifold is a one-off custom manifold that is custom tailored and designed to work with each particular customer's application. This has nothing to do with maching rods or turning a chunk of billet on a lathe.


If you were to get a set of custom turbo manifold like this for a small blcok 350, i am willing to guarantee that whoever you get it from it will cost the same or more, and chanes are that you will still get thin wall tubing. I know of no other manufacturer that uses the thick tubing i do simply because it is so difficult and time consuming to work with. KOOKS from long island wont use it and if you spec a set of turbo headers for a mustang youre going to spend 2800$ and it will be thin wall 304.

These manifolds are far from being mass produced and will continue to be handmade. If you want to save some money, please dont go with the turbo performance manifolds. Maxrev makes a killer stainless log style manifold, and of course the cast manifold from HKS (if you can find it) is a great design. This post is once again becoming far too long so ill end it now. Thanks for reading.

 

[ILOSE]

Like I said your manny is very very nice but damn is it expensive. That's all! You say your clector is $350? Then I suppose after the flange and tubing is added in there you are only profiting about $100?

I do not know aht your goal for selling these things are and by handmaking them production really can't be that high anyway, but "I" would think that a little lower price would yield much better sales. Is it better to sell 5 of those at a higher price or 50 at a lower initial profit?

O well, very nice indeed!

Ken: I wouldn't say that an over 20 billion dollar industry is in anyway small. The scene has steadily grown in the past 6 years and still no le way in pricing. Thems the breaks I guess!

 

[KenTSIII]

I'm just saying that there are far fewer import parts made than v8 parts... it's a fact live w/ it. If the import industry is $20 billion.. then the v8 instustry is 100billion... Yes we are growing.. but a majority of the growth is on the honda side... I highly doubt that we'll see a whole lot of growth in the mitsu side. The dsm crowd is incedibly small comparted to everyone else.. so our parts may never be cheaply mass produced like some of the other badges are. Every day another DSM dies from someone's lack of maintenance or idiocy... & every day some dumb young kid buys a DSM drives it for a year & blows it up or crashes it.. or whatever they do to them... The DSM community is shrinking instead of growing... so we're sh!t outta luck.

 

[RocketDSM]

As for the pricing of import parts.....most of those suppliers are still in the "pocketbook" of the "good ole boys o'NASCAR" and of course they don't like us importers squashing them. There are still a lot more pushrod engines playing then ours in the aftermarket scene, so get used to it. As for the direct price of the manifolds, I think Geoff is right on. He has to be given something for his time and he even said that he makes them as fast as he can. Lowering price won't make him able to make more, just cut into his profits. I really doubt he has a bunch of these just sitting around. So they sell just fine, I say keep thje price and if I had the money I would buy one myself, but the Navy just doesn't pay well enough yet.

 

[Geovannie]

You have to pay to play. That is the way this works.

You can go ahead and by the turboperformance manifold. Then you will be like the other people that come on boards and say that all tubular manifolds crack because you decided to buy a cheap one

BTW when I say "you" I'm not talking to anyone in specific.