Knock sensor location

[GOTLAUNCH?]

I recently purchased a 92 Talon TSi AWD and when checking everything out I found out that the knock sensor was put in another location and not between the #2 and #3 cylinder. It was more towards the #1 cylinder and lower than the stock location but it was super easy to access since I don't have AC. Are there any drawbacks to this?

 

[Kapok6]

I recently purchased a 92 Talon TSi AWD and when checking everything out I found out that the knock sensor was put in another location and not between the #2 and #3 cylinder. It was more towards the #1 cylinder and lower than the stock location but it was super easy to access since I don't have AC. Are there any drawbacks to this?

I am reading tons of phantom knock, so I am about to try putting the knock sensor in one of the other threads and see if it changes.

 

[TSIfreek]

The knock sensor should be high on the block because thats were the knock would occur (the accual igniton source area) the lower in the block the less the sensor will be effective and may not retard timing if detionation does occur. I use a 15/16" wrench that I cut to accually use on the sensor for removing and installing . Also removing the battery and starter helps as well.

 

[GOTLAUNCH?]

Thanks for the replys guys. I actually say it's easiest to get the knock sensor by taking off the bracket in the back(one that has the vac lines on it) and going from the Drivers Side if you don't have AC but if you do then the passenger side would probably be easier. Actually I was underneath the car and if you wanna get REALLY easy then just take your dp out or put it to the side and let it slack after removing the nuts and you can get it from underneath the car. I just used a small adjustable wrench to put it on. BTW don't torque it too much I heard that the more you torque it the more sensitive it'll get? or it'll just get plain screwed up

 

[Echo5Zulu]

Ive heard that before as well. I dont know how much truth is in it but you have to make sure it doesnt wiggle out as well. That would be a bad day. I put my down snug but I didnt torque it all crazy like and its run well according to the logger.

 

[Kapok6]

I have found the easiest way to get to it is to drop your DP. I have done it 3 times now, soon to be a 4th. I am a Pro. As for not sensing knock if I move it, I am running stock boost on 93 octane and all I am picking up is PK, so I am to the point that I no longer care too much, If I blow my motor, i will just get another one and not have to worry about it anymore. Either way, problem fixed.

 

[jetdriven]

I am able to unscrew it from the pass side reaching beside thebattery and then under the intake manifold from the passenger side.. there is room there.

 

[BISHILVR]

Just go my route and remove it and lay it on top of the intake mani. Oh lookey no knock!!! Been goin strong for 30,000 miles like that.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Just go my route and remove it and lay it on top of the intake mani. Oh lookey no knock!!! Been goin strong for 30,000 miles like that.

That would be about the dumbest thing to do. Not be able to measure knock...HMMM that sounds safe.

 

[ian7321]

That would be about the dumbest thing to do. Not be able to measure knock...HMMM that sounds safe.

Ya I know it does sound safe, so does it that you dont have yours in the right location and with no AC I am assuming that whoever had the car before you just threaded it in the ac mount holes. So know your car before you start to bash others.....

 

[larsrya8]

Were you being sarcastic ian? It is NOT SAFE to have a non-functional knock sensor. Sure, it may have worked for a while now, but as soon as you something goes wrong (bad gas, etc) that engine is going to have problems.

P.S. GOTLAUNCH didn't bash anyone ian... he's the one with the knock sensor possibly in the A/C location. 95bLaCkGsTuRbO is the one you quoted.

 

[bastarddsm]

If the car is running stock like boost you won't have problems as long as you buy gas from a trusted source. Your not going to blow up the motor from a lil bit of knock at 11psi.
My first motor got the shit kicked out of it, it was a n/t block that had a hole punched in the side from a rod leaving the engine. I brazed a piece of sheet metal in the hole to patch her up. The inerts were from a boneyard turbo motor that sat in the rain for a few years without a head on it, ya cylinders froze solid. Well i freed it up and cleaned it up and stuffed it all in my n/t block, used rings and bearings too. so tell me this motor was a good one. Once i turboed my car it saw 19-21 psi all the time on a stock fuel system with a stock n/t pump and 93. It went 13.90 like this and it's fwd, this lasted for 11,000 miles until a cheap adjusa headgasket failed. I could have saved it but i decided to nurse it home 25 miles, and that is what killed it. It eventually melted the head between cyls 1-2 which is where the headgasket failed, and coincidently started to melt and scuff pistons. It even torched the top of the block. It had been detonating so hard it shattered the insulators off the plugs. When I tore it down I expected to see broken ring lands, but no sign of them at all. All in all i don't really think you have to worry about blowing it up a stock boost with out a knock sensor unless your doing sumthing rally bad. In all honesty the knock sensors ain't really any good anyway.

sorry for the long post, have a good day.

 

[larsrya8]

I could have saved it but i decided to nurse it home 25 miles, and that is what killed it. It eventually melted the head between cyls 1-2 which is where the headgasket failed, and coincidently started to melt and scuff pistons. It even torched the top of the block. It had been detonating so hard it shattered the insulators off the plugs. When I tore it down I expected to see broken ring lands, but no sign of them at all.

Wow.

I can't find anything in your post telling us whether you did or didn't have a knock sensor. Did you? Knowing this would help us determine what you are arguing. Right now it's just a horror story.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that turbo pistons have the rings positioned lower to help them from being damaged by knock. If I didn't have so much other stuff to do I'd find some pictures to see if this is true or not. I fairly sure I read it on Tuners so if you search long enough you might find it.

You are mostly right about the safety of running stock boost. The timing maps are pre-programmed, so as long as nothing bad is happening or you don't modify the car you might be able to get away without having one. Every car is different though.

 

[bastarddsm]

well to clairify i did have a knock sensor. I was trying to state that it is going to take one hell of a lot of knock to blow it up.

the ring lands are really not much different, as shown by the illustation, the only real difference is that little peak area.

Quite honestly i think it would be really hard to break ring lands off a n/t piston. I had one in a vice and beat the hell out of the ring land, and couldn't get it to break off. I think a headgasket will fail before it will happen.

Right now the car has a stock n/t shortblock, and it seems fine running 9psi, but i had the wastegate hose blow off on a pull and it lit the knock light up, but it didn't hurt anything.

I wouldn't be affraid of not using the knock sensor on stock boost though. I mean if it's gonna blow up at stock boost, it aint gonna be bc of the knock sensor. Check the plugs often after hard running, and maybe run cooler plugs, hell set the base timing back a few degrees. Listen for knock when your on it. If you hear it, then it's time to lift.

Happy Knocking.

 

[BISHILVR]

If the car is running stock like boost you won't have problems as long as you buy gas from a trusted source. Your not going to blow up the motor from a lil bit of knock at 11psi.
My first motor got the shit kicked out of it, it was a n/t block that had a hole punched in the side from a rod leaving the engine. I brazed a piece of sheet metal in the hole to patch her up. The inerts were from a boneyard turbo motor that sat in the rain for a few years without a head on it, ya cylinders froze solid. Well i freed it up and cleaned it up and stuffed it all in my n/t block, used rings and bearings too. so tell me this motor was a good one. Once i turboed my car it saw 19-21 psi all the time on a stock fuel system with a stock n/t pump and 93. It went 13.90 like this and it's fwd, this lasted for 11,000 miles until a cheap adjusa headgasket failed. I could have saved it but i decided to nurse it home 25 miles, and that is what killed it. It eventually melted the head between cyls 1-2 which is where the headgasket failed, and coincidently started to melt and scuff pistons. It even torched the top of the block. It had been detonating so hard it shattered the insulators off the plugs. When I tore it down I expected to see broken ring lands, but no sign of them at all. All in all i don't really think you have to worry about blowing it up a stock boost with out a knock sensor unless your doing sumthing rally bad. In all honesty the knock sensors ain't really any good anyway.

sorry for the long post, have a good day.

You are correct!!! I guess there are alot of "soft skulled" people here that think the knock sensor is the savior of the 4g63. Just a question to those people: What do you think happens when someone does a turbo install into a n/t 4g63 that has higher compression and NO KNOCK SENSOR???, does it explode into tiny molecules???, No it does'nt!!! How about before fuel injection when there were carburetors on turbo cars???, there was no knock sensor on those cars. So i've drivin this car for 2.5 years and 30,000 miles with no knock sensor and you dont think i've ever gotten a bad tank of gas yet??? Give me a break. As long as you are running stock boost levels you dont even have to have a knock sensor period, there are plenty of cars, trucks, and crotch rockets on the road everyday running without them and doing fine. If you have enough knock to destroy and engine it would make so much noise that you would have to be a complete idiot moron to not know what the noise is and that it is not a good sound. Have you ever ran without a knock sensor??? I have, so I speak from experience, not guesses or what I heard from someone else, or read somewhere. Before you go calling someone stupid or dumb have some experience to back yourself up. I happen to have a genius level IQ, but i guess it's true what they say: "it takes one to know one"

 

[larsrya8]

What do you think happens when someone does a turbo install into a n/t 4g63 that has higher compression and NO KNOCK SENSOR???, does it explode into tiny molecules???, No it does'nt!!!

Of course it wouldn't... and I never stated that it would.

How about before fuel injection when there were carburetors on turbo cars???, there was no knock sensor on those cars.

Why does it matter if it is carbureted or fuel injected?

So i've drivin this car for 2.5 years and 30,000 miles with no knock sensor and you dont think i've ever gotten a bad tank of gas yet??? Give me a break.

You probably haven't. Almost all gas stations take good care of their tanks. Water naturally accumulates in the tanks and needs to be pumped out. A Stop-n-Go in my area didn't pump out their tanks because the manager was on vacation and the people left in charge didn't know what to do when the computer informed them of the problem. It rarely happens that one gets a bad tank of gas, but why expose yourself to risks by taking away the ECU's means of detecting the problem?

As long as you are running stock boost levels you dont even have to have a knock sensor period, there are plenty of cars, trucks, and crotch rockets on the road everyday running without them and doing fine.

You don't need to have the sensor, but why would you not want it? Turbo DSMs come with them. I can see your argument being stronger if they didn't come with sensors.

If you have enough knock to destroy and engine it would make so much noise that you would have to be a complete idiot moron to not know what the noise is and that it is not a good sound.

I've actually never been shown what an engine sounds like when it is knocking. How clear is it that an engine is knocking?

Thesaurus.com lists "idiot" and "moron" as synonyms...

Have you ever ran without a knock sensor??? I have, so I speak from experience, not guesses or what I heard from someone else, or read somewhere. Before you go calling someone stupid or dumb have some experience to back yourself up.

I'm fairly positive my car still has its knock sensor, but I haven't checked or have a logger, so I can't tell you for sure. When you say that you speak from experience, you're just saying that you don't have a knock sensor and you haven't noticed any problems.

I've seen people remove their knock sensor to help combat phantom knock. To me this seems to be a band-aid.

I didn't call anyone stupid or dumb.

I happen to have a genius level IQ, but i guess it's true what they say: "it takes one to know one"

Just because you have a high IQ doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. It means that you have a high IQ. I never claimed to be a genius either. I admit that I don't have an in-depth understanding of knock sensors. I was merely stating what the general consensus is, which is that knock is bad, and not being able to measure it is not a good idea.

It is NOT SAFE to have a non-functional knock sensor. Sure, it may have worked for a while now, but as soon as you something goes wrong (bad gas, etc) that engine is going to have problems.

That is all I was saying. I didn't even say that removing the knock sensor would immediately result in the engine having problems. I said "as soon as something goes wrong". Granted if something goes horribly wrong, as it did for bastarddsm, then the ECU can only do so much, and the engine will probably be lost.

I will restate that every car is different. A blanket statement telling people that their knock sensor is useless might not be true for some people. Also, many people tune for knock, which means that the sensor will need to be functional. In fact, almost every log for a WOT run includes the knock value. This can't all be a coincidence can it? Being able to tell if a car is knocking must be important.

 

[BISHILVR]

Well, I'm gonna say that its a good idea to have a knock sensor, but it's not a must have. Look at cars that dont have them (theres plenty of them) they run fine and for a long time. My whole point to my reply is that the knock sensor is not this huge big important thing that you absolutely must have on your car or it's all over. People flaming me for removing mine should wise up and not be calling me an idiot over it or saying that it's the dumbest thing in the world to do. Btw, knock sounds like someone hitting your engine block with a hammer, it's very obvious. Ping sounds like marbles being shaken in a coffee can.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Ya I know it does sound safe, so does it that you dont have yours in the right location and with no AC I am assuming that whoever had the car before you just threaded it in the ac mount holes. So know your car before you start to bash others.....

My motor was completly built from the ground up by me. So I think I know it pretty well. Considering I know reside in Arizona my A/C is hooked up and my knock sensor is in the right place.

 

[GOTLAUNCH?]

Wow didn't mean for the thread to turn to this. HAHA you guys are great. Anyways I replaced my sensor with a new OEM one cause my old one was leaking bad. I put it in the stock location which is @ the highest point on the block around the #2/#3 cylinder. Thanks all

 

[bastarddsm]

thats where there suposed to be at, How bad was yours leaking though. Mine is leakig too, but i don't belive i am getting phantom Knock. I don't have a logger currently but i have the knock light mod and it never lights up unless my wastegate hose falls off.

 

[GOTLAUNCH?]

it was bad enough to see the nice spring and junk setup in there. I talked to Mike @ RRE about it and he said if that starts to leak to change it ASAP reguardless of phantom knock or else. haha I trust Mike W.