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Crankwalk Can Be Intensified by Bad Ground

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set3422

20+ Year Contributor
364
0
Oct 23, 2002
Atlanta, Georgia
According to this website:
http://www.atra-gears.com/crankshaft/


"Note: As with all modifications, it is important to find the original cause of the problem before making modifications. Failure to do so may result in a repeat failure.



Other External Problems
Aside from the items already mentioned, there is another external problem that should be addressed. Ground problems have been known to intensify thrust surface wear. Excessive current in the drivetrain can damage the thrust surface, which then affects the thrust bearing as though the thrust surface on the crank shaft isn't finished properly.

It's easy to check for excessive voltage in the drivetrain: Connect the negative lead of your DVOM to the negative post of the battery, and the positive lead to the transmission. You should see no more than 0.1 volts on your meter while the starter is cranking.

For an accurate test, the starter must operate for at least four seconds. It may be necessary to disable the ignition system so the engine won't start during the test.

If the voltage is excessive, check or replace the negative battery cable, or add ground straps from the engine to the frame, or the transmission to the frame.

Some systems may reach 0.3 volts momentarily without having a problem. For added assurance, improve the ground with a larger battery cable or additional ground straps.

Although the greatest current draw is usually while the starter is cranking, current in the drivetrain can occur while accessories are operating. That's why you should perform this voltage-drop test with the ignition on, and as many accessories operating as possible. Again, the threshold is 0.1 volt.

One final problem that may occur is current though the drivetrain, without measurable voltage. If the grounding problem is in the chassis but the engine and transmission ground is okay (or vice-versa), the vehicle may pass the test. What happens here is the ground circuit can be completed through the drive shaft and suspension.

To test this, measure the voltage drop with the drive shaft removed. Both the drivetrain and frame must pass the 0.1 volt test. This is where a ground strap from the engine or transmission to the frame does its best work.

Summary
As with most problems, rarely is one solution the answer for all examples. It is attention to detail and rebuild procedures that include many details that ensure success. The intent of this article is to include the most likely causes for crankshaft thrust failure, as well as dispel some of the myths and mysteries surrounding it."


Now can someone explaining how is this possible? I'm guessing that it has to do something with the polarity charge between crankshaft/block and engine oil. Bad ground will cause oil film not sticking between bearings and metals?????
 
I totally dont understand how that would wear the thrust surface down. Maybe someone smarter than me can explain it better.
 
talonted_one said:
Electronics tech here....I think its BS also.


Since we have two qualified electrical/electronics professionals saying this is BS, then I wouldn't have anymore to say other than BS as well. I'm ESDS certified and I never heard of anything like this. Any chemical engineer can agree engine oil is pretty neutral and it doesn't attract or repel to any metal based substance on the periodic chart. Thanks.
 
I AM A 3RD YEAR ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING STUDENT AND CALL BS ON THAT TOO. LIKE set3422 SAID, ENGINE OIL IS VERY NEUTRAL, AND WOULD NOT CAUSE ANY ADITIONAL WEAR TO THE THRUST SURFACE ON THE CRANK. WHO THINKS THESE THINGS UP? :confused:
 
When waving the chicken bone over the motor while torquing down the mains, it's important that you always use a thigh bone.
 
bigfoot said:
When waving the chicken bone over the motor while torquing down the mains, it's important that you always use a thigh bone.


Hahaha...that's some funny line Ive been waiting to hear all day.
 
bigfoot said:
When waving the chicken bone over the motor while torquing down the mains, it's important that you always use a thigh bone.

Yeah but everyone knows that works! :thumb:
 
I cant really say if it is true or not, but I can say that I have heard that come up before. I am a tech for a local toyota dealer ship and I had an instructor tell me about this before when I was in my school to become a tech, though I have never had this happen at the dealership before. I also had this as a question on one of my ase tests a few years ago. I dont believe it had anything to do with the oil viscosity breaking down, though it was due to metal transfer between the two parts. I cannot completely verify this but I have had a trans transfer metal in the pilot of the crank due to a bad ground so I suppose that that could be a viable problem with a very bad ground. Though usually you would see pitting of the metal as the two surfaces in close proximity would transfer spark between the two, much like a spark plug. However, the thrust surface on the bearing wears smoothly away in crank walk, the pitting could happen earlier on and promote the tendency for the bearing to wear though I think it is unlikely. I believe the crank walk is still due to the fact of the bearings being misaligned. But I just wanted to give the other side of the situation and let you know that it does come up, though very little, as a possability in the automotive world.
 
This is all BS. IF this was a "problem" then all the companies making car would have it addressed. Most cars have more electrical crap on them then your house. I dont see how they would let it happen. Plus like others have said oil is neutral.

If you have metal shaving in your oil then you are already ####ed no matter if they are attracted to positive or negative.

Michael
:talon: :laser:
 
'Splain to me how, of all the metallic interfaces inside a motor, how the thrust bearing is going to be any more affected than any other?

A poor block ground can lead to poor running.

Now, a little curio: the thermostat housing on the Datsun roadsters came with a specific gasket with a broad copper "staple" through it. The temperature sender lived in a housing that was sandwiched between the head and the gooseneck, and without it, the temperature gauge would never get a decent reading. Apparently the contact between the through studs just wasn't good enough.
 
Defiant said:
'Splain to me how, of all the metallic interfaces inside a motor, how the thrust bearing is going to be any more affected than any other?

A poor block ground can lead to poor running.

Now, a little curio: the thermostat housing on the Datsun roadsters came with a specific gasket with a broad copper "staple" through it. The temperature sender lived in a housing that was sandwiched between the head and the gooseneck, and without it, the temperature gauge would never get a decent reading. Apparently the contact between the through studs just wasn't good enough.

Regarding the metallic interfaces inside the motor, I think they're suggesting that the thrust bearings are more sensitive than the rest of the motor. The theory is valid: two conductive surfaces separated by an insulator is a capacitor. A voltage across a cap denotes charge (V=q/C). The amount of charge needed to create .1-.3 V would be too small to electroplate anything. Transmission friction probably generates more charge.

Sensors are different, though. A temp sensor usually measures small changes in resistance and then converts that value to a voltage. If you don't have a constant ground those tiny changes can be masked by ground bounce. That's the fun part of voltage: ground doesn't really mean anything on it's own. Ground on my car might be way different than your car, measured relative to the earth. Or anything else. Sometimes ground is -20 V and "12V" is really -8 V. All 12V means is the hot terminal is 12V higher than the ground terminal. Sometimes that matters and sometimes it doesn't. The trick is knowing when...

And wait until you throw in AC current/power. Then you have to solve equasions in two diminesions...

;)

Good stuff...

-M
 
boostedinaz said:
This is all BS. IF this was a "problem" then all the companies making car would have it addressed.

C'mon now, you can't use that as a justification at all. Obviously they didn't address other problems with the thrust bearing, so what makes you think they would have addressed this if it had existed?

Now, I don't agree with that crap, but not for the reason you stated.
 
kpt4321 said:
C'mon now, you can't use that as a justification at all. Obviously they didn't address other problems with the thrust bearing, so what makes you think they would have addressed this if it had existed?

Now, I don't agree with that crap, but not for the reason you stated.

I wasnt just talking about just Mitsu and there crankwalk "problem". I meant it as a general statment. I know that if this was such a problem that it would have popped up more than just this instance or with more cars than just Mitsu. These companies may not fees up to all there mistakes but I think for the most part they do a decent job.

I have a good feeling that the audio freaks would have found out about this long ago.

Michael
:talon: :laser:
 
SET3422 i've experienced this before and it is a well know fact. Hey none believers disconnect your body earth straps and just leave your battery to engine strap on. Now drive your car around for a couple of days especially night driving and when your accelerator starts getting stiff to use or starts to stick (yeah your accelerator) i think you should be able to pull out your thrust bearings and check out the marks on the thrust face. I 've been in the automotive game and now in the jet aircraft industry total of 32years and still learning. Dont ever call anything BS if you dont understand! youll make yourself out to be a **** in the long run!! a bit of paper that says what you passed in school is great but the best learning you will do is EXPERIENCE!!
 
Capacitor story aside, I'm still awaiting a reason it'd choose the thrust bearing over all the rod bearings, cam bearings, crank bearings, gudgeon pin bushings, wristpin-to-piston, piston-to-rings, rings-to-cylinder, and all them other pesky spaces. Why would the thrust bearing be singled out?
 
Its the best earth!!!! believe it or not from the rotating mass back to the block earth. To find all this out cost me two line bores two cranks, 1 $128 phone call to Grumpy bill Jenkins in the states (didnt solve it) and a 5 min phone to Holden dealer team racing TECH! first thing he said was: have you an earth strap from the body to the motor. Who do you reckon felt like the dick head then. Engine was reassembled (350 chev, twin turboed, NOS.) in a street car daily driver. It did approx' 160 quarter mile passes after that no problems (average 10.1-143mph and a couple of 9.8's) till it snapped an axle midway and buried itself into a wall.

I believe what i experience!!!!
 
blue1,
Thanks for the enlightment. Technology changes. I'm not disrespecting your credible experience. Let's think back how was automotive industry like in 1972, most engines and transmission were manufactured with iron based substance. Aluminium was considered as exotic. Tri-metal main bearings (babbit) were at experimental stage. Copper lead main bearings were widely used. Let alone engine oil grade was only available in few selections for 4 stroke gasoline engine because of crude oil refinery was still improving in its extraction process. What I'm trying to say is that what ATRA gear website claim might be true for building blocks specifically for their era, but it wouldn't be valid for buidling a 4g63 block. 4g6x engines were designed in the 80's where most issues with engine grounding would have been resolved by then. You even said yourself you're still learning. Ask yourself this question "Is it applicable what I've learned 30 years ago would be still valid for current practice?" I can proudly admit what I've learned 10 years ago would no longer apply to today's technology. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm always here to listen and learn from people's experience.

Experience is just as important as new ideas.


blue1 said:
Its the best earth!!!! believe it or not from the rotating mass back to the block earth. To find all this out cost me two line bores two cranks, 1 $128 phone call to Grumpy bill Jenkins in the states (didnt solve it) and a 5 min phone to Holden dealer team racing TECH! first thing he said was: have you an earth strap from the body to the motor. Who do you reckon felt like the dick head then. Engine was reassembled (350 chev, twin turboed, NOS.) in a street car daily driver. It did approx' 160 quarter mile passes after that no problems (average 10.1-143mph and a couple of 9.8's) till it snapped an axle midway and buried itself into a wall.

I believe what i experience!!!!
 
Defiant said:
Capacitor story aside, I'm still awaiting a reason it'd choose the thrust bearing over all the rod bearings, cam bearings, crank bearings, gudgeon pin bushings, wristpin-to-piston, piston-to-rings, rings-to-cylinder, and all them other pesky spaces. Why would the thrust bearing be singled out?


Good point. Why thrust bearing has to be the scapegoat for bad ground? All other parts are just as guilty. Maybe we're just barking at the wrong tree.
 
No your right, 7 bolts are a thing on there own. Magnus motor sports have there theory and as i always say " take it in and think about it" Whats the difference with the 6Bolt and the 7bolt where they get there oil squirter supply from! I have the aussie version of the 7bolt the main bearing caps are a full 1 piece cradle, no squirters and thats the way it will stay. 6 bolts have been known to break of the oil squirters but you dont see them crankwalking, and if you notice on on all jdm vehicles now they do use earth straps on everything,(engine,trans and i've even seen them on bonnet hinges).

Problems that ford are having over here on one of there 96 thru 99 model 6 cyl's was the alloy heads were being eaten away by electrolysis, by placing an earth strap from the inlet manifold to the body. Ford said it was an corrosion inhibitor problem but after they were fixing the car under warranty this nice looking earth strap appeared on the ones they had fixed!!( drinking buddy works at a dealer)

set3422 i think (one of my brainwaves) because vehicles are so reliant on battery power now days with all the accessories they have in cars and so much non conductive materials they use eg:plastic everything even the radiator tanks the build up of different static charges do make life difficult. As i said i now work on the big jet airliners 737 thru 747 if you ever get a chance to tour a maintenance base do it, then you will see what earth strap are!! And ask an engineer what they do!
 
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