Which platform for 500whp?

[twin-turbos]

Hi to all. I'm hoping all you knowledgable DSM owners have some input as to which platform I should use to build 500whp.

First off my goal is to build a medium to high-speed street racer; say from 30-130mph.

I am thinking 1st gen like a 1992 turbo fwd. I believe the AWD steals more power and is problematic handling all this power, even from a roll... is this correct? Also the AWD is quite a bit heavier, anyone know how much?

Which one is less likely to give me problems the AWD or FWD. I don't brutalize my car from a stop so maybe this helps. So which derivetraing combo can hold 500whp from a roll more reliably? I'm sure this is a difficult question to answer but give it your best shot. I know the FWD doesn't even have a limited slip, correct? Maybe the FWD drivetrain can not handle all this power, experienced FWD owners give some input if you can?

Thanx!

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

A FWD will not handle 500HP from a roll without a limited slip. An AWD could becasue it has a limited slip. If you want a street racer forget about 500 WHP I would shoot for 400WHP and IF you get there and still need more your car will not be streetable.

Later,

 

[NosLaser]

My car (FWD) didn't quite make 500HP to the wheels, but it did make over 400, and I used it as a street racer from 60-160+ for most of my races. Besides the less rotational mass and frictional driveline loss, the FWD has the advantage of gearing. Build up a motor that makes torque, couple that with a nice long powerband inducing gear, and you have a killer street racer. Nitrous is definately a good idea when building a street race turbo car. It gets rid of ANY lag you may have, and also makes for smooth linear top end power as well.

Regards,

 

[twin-turbos]

Originally posted by NosLaser
My car (FWD) didn't quite make 500HP to the wheels, but it did make over 400, and I used it as a street racer from 60-160+ for most of my races. Besides the less rotational mass and frictional driveline loss, the FWD has the advantage of gearing. Build up a motor that makes torque, couple that with a nice long powerband inducing gear, and you have a killer street racer. Nitrous is definately a good idea when building a street race turbo car. It gets rid of ANY lag you may have, and also makes for smooth linear top end power as well.

Regards,

What did you do to make 400+FWHP? Is it reliable or have you gone through several tranny's, engines, and front-drive systems??

 

[NosLaser]

I did it about the most low buck way you can; small 16g, dry nitrous kit, and a lot of good fuel. (423HP, 428TQ to the wheels) I wouldn't recommend using a dry nitrous kit on a turbo car, and if you are going with a turbo/nitrous setup, I would recommend having the turbine wheel clipped at least 15 degrees. (you will build up some EGT's with nitrous) My car never broke a tranny or an axle, and the only problem I had was with the cylinder head lifting. That was partly my fault as my block had not been freshly decked, and I was running a 4 layer metal head gasket which in my personal opinion is crap. In hindsight, I would either use a stocker, a felpro, or ideally, a soft copper gasket. If you do the motor right the first time, you shouldn't encounter problems with proper tuning. I was working on an extreme budget, so therefore corners had to be cut. The car was bloody fast for the 8 months it was alive and well, but with continued cooling system problems, I took her down to be built into a beast; a vision that came to an abrupt ending with a shop fire. By-gones.

 

[twin-turbos]

Hey too Bad. It sounded like a real beast. Can the stock internals handle that much power? I heard Nitrous is pretty hard on the rods. Was your car having cooling problems with all that power or was it just an elemental cooling problem? Do you think you can build that much power on stock internals without nitrous reliably? Thanx

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by twin-turbos
What did you do to make 400+FWHP? Is it reliable or have you gone through several tranny's, engines, and front-drive systems??

I would say that a fwd car at that power level would be more reliable than an awd car. Axles aren’t going to be a huge problem until you launch on something sticky.

It all depends on where and how you are doing your racing. I know Aslan has a lot more experience in this than I do. But laying rubber in the first 3 gears just isn’t very appealing to me. If you aren’t going to have any traction you might as well get a rwd car and have not have to fight the laws of physics for traction. The amount of drivetrain loss in an awd is overrated anyway at least you have traction.

 

[rdrkt]

91 rods 95 piston can do 500hp no problem it has been replicated several times. An aluminum radiator with a low temp tstat and the right mix of water/coolant seems to work fine on my setup my coolant really doesn’t get too much over 200 even on wot runs in 4th.

 

[twin-turbos]

Originally posted by rdrkt
91 rods 95 piston can do 500hp no problem it has been replicated several times. An aluminum radiator with a low temp tstat and the right mix of water/coolant seems to work fine on my setup my coolant really doesn’t get too much over 200 even on wot runs in 4th.

Cool. How bout just purchasing a 92' fwd Turbo. What turbo will get me to 500hp and give me full boost by 4500 rpms. I am looking for a top-end crusher; Something to take on a single turbo MKIV Supra... What a ya think?

 

[IPT]

To answer the question in the heading.... GET A SUPRA!!!

But that costs a bit more than a DSM...

 

[rdrkt]

Well my turbo on c16 is good for well past that right now I am at about 400hp to the wheels on pump gas. You will need a fairly big turbo like a red or a big trim garret. Even then it wont be the easiest thing in the world.

 

[twin-turbos]

Originally posted by IPT
To answer the question in the heading.... GET A SUPRA!!!

But that costs a bit more than a DSM...

So there's no chance the make the Talon run with a single turbo mkiv supra for 5000$ extra mods. I believe the single turbo supras make a max of 500RWHP on pump gas and a lot more on 110 Octane. But I'm talking about the street here so what a ya think? No chance? I guess if we can out out 450fwhp a Talon FWD has a chance, corect? I may be dreaming here but maybe it is possible?

 

[rdrkt]

From a roll is a Supra’s specialty considering it has the gearing and powerband for it. Even a bpu supra makes 400+ to the wheels. A well tuned single will make a lot closer to 600. My advice buy an awd and make him run from a dead dig.

 

[twin-turbos]

How much do the AWD and FWD talons weigh? Any ideas? Let's say 50-150mph can I make a talon that will beat a single turbo 500WHP Supra on stock internals? I guess the FWD talon would have to have 450+FWHP, is this possible on stock internals?I believe 500whp is the most all tuners recommend for the Supra MKIV on pump gas regardless of Boost Pressure.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by twin-turbos
How much do the AWD and FWD talons weigh? Any ideas?

Stock they weigh around 2900lbs or less. You can chop a few hundred lbs off of that without too much problems.

Originally posted by twin-turbos
I guess the FWD talon would have to have 450+FWHP, is this possible on stock internals?

Originally posted by rdrkt
91 rods 95 piston can do 500hp no problem it has been replicated several times.

Originally posted by twin-turbos
I believe 500whp is the most all tuners recommend for the Supra MKIV on pump gas regardless of Boost Pressure.

I have seen some rare Supras make well over 600 on pump gas. You are going to have to run c16 to attain your goals what’s to say that they wont be running that as well? You are setting a very tough goal for yourself and it won’t be easy. But good luck

 

[twin-turbos]

Thanx man! I will try to make it there. With the price of Supras these days, Talons are the next best machines to mod in my book...

 

[NosLaser]

Alright, WTF? I just typed a long response to this, hit submit, and it said I wasn't logged in, and then erased it. Cute.

Cliff's notes:

Rdrkt is right. RWD is the way to go.

What you will worry about with a high HP 4 banger is cylinder pressure. Imports can run blazing 1/4 mile times because they are light, and can be made rather powerful. However, for a street race car, one that will see lengthy races from say 60-180+, cylinder pressure will rear it's ugly head sooner than later. If you want to whip the single turbo Supras, go with a Twin Turbo V8 in a stable body, such as an F-body Formula or T/A, or a C4 Corvette. You will fear NO Supra on the highway, make 1100++ RWHP without nitrous, and have the peace of mind that you are spreading cylinder pressure amongst 8 cylinders, rather than 4. On the highway, horsepower rules, not weight. A 4 cylinder DSM simply can't make the reliable horsepower of a larger V6, I6 or V8. I just typed a lot before and it got erased so I'm a little frazzled, but I'll expand more as questions arise.

Regards,

 

[twin-turbos]

So what RWD V-6 or V-8's are you talking about. What turbo kits did you say for the C-4 or T/A? I could not find any over 450 crankHP...

What a ya think. Find me a turbo kit for a V-8 that's make over 600hp and I will be very happy. Until then it looks like the talon is the best bet...

 

[NosLaser]

<<<So what RWD V-6 or V-8's are you talking about. What turbo kits did you say for the C-4 or T/A? I could not find any over 450 crankHP...

What a ya think. Find me a turbo kit for a V-8 that's make over 600hp and I will be very happy. Until then it looks like the talon is the best bet...>>>

I promised myself I'd be nice on this forum. You ARE just joking, right? The turbo "kits" available for most of the F-bodies are designed to not blow up the STOCK internals, and they run on about 3-4psi depending on the kit. Just about ANY and I mean ANY aftermarket turbo 'kit' sucks. Sucks badly. They use an inefficient turbo, an inefficient intercooler, the cheapest piping available, etc. With a custom TT setup on a built bottom end, you can make 1500 wheel HP with relative EASE on a V8 without nitrous. You aren't one of those people who think 4 cylinders make more HP than V8's are you? A Twin Turbo V8 with a well executed setup and tuning will make more horsepower than you would ever know what to do with.

Regards,

 

[dsmtrance]

Hell, I'm sitting here looking at what you already have...the Stealth TT. And it looks like it has some VERY nice mods. I'm thinking, hmmm, 6cyl, TT, and all those upgrades, you should be running pretty damn healthy in that car already. Are you just tired of it and want something diff. or did I miss something else?
I agree with what has been said here though. I mean, for most of us $$$ is a big factor. If it's not for you, then I say GO FOR IT (you'll need it!). My goal is 500 crank HP (about 425WHP) on my AWD. Still have a ways to go but all in time. Making the power you are talking about on a stock motor and running it like you are planning on running it (street racing) I would bet my money on it (the motor, etc.) not lasting very long...at all! I too saw a sight a while back that offered turbo kits for the LT1 and LS1's (had some VERY impressive HP numbers). I'll see if I can find it again...it's been a while!
And finally, NosLaser, those are some awesome HP numbers! 423HP/428TQ at the wheels...on a small 16G! Granted you had spray but that is still damn impressive. I'd love to have seen that car run

 

[twin-turbos]

Originally posted by dsmtrance
Hell, I'm sitting here looking at what you already have...the Stealth TT. And it looks like it has some VERY nice mods. I'm thinking, hmmm, 6cyl, TT, and all those upgrades, you should be running pretty damn healthy in that car already. Are you just tired of it and want something diff. or did I miss something else?
I agree with what has been said here though. I mean, for most of us $$$ is a big factor. If it's not for you, then I say GO FOR IT (you'll need it!). My goal is 500 crank HP (about 425WHP) on my AWD. Still have a ways to go but all in time. Making the power you are talking about on a stock motor and running it like you are planning on running it (street racing) I would bet my money on it (the motor, etc.) not lasting very long...at all! I too saw a sight a while back that offered turbo kits for the LT1 and LS1's (had some VERY impressive HP numbers). I'll see if I can find it again...it's been a while!
And finally, NosLaser, those are some awesome HP numbers! 423HP/428TQ at the wheels...on a small 16G! Granted you had spray but that is still damn impressive. I'd love to have seen that car run

Thanx for the input. I use my Stealth for light-to-light racing. The AWD gives it good traction. The AWD system also steals a lot of power at the top-end. I would like to build a top-end crusher that will beat a Single-turbo 500RWHP Supra from a roll. What a ya think? Ya, if you find the LS-1/LT-1 TT link let me know. That would be awesome. Although I don't know that the diffs/engine can handle the kind of power I want to make(LS-1/LT-1 cars). They would have to be upgraded too, which would cost double the cost with the forced induction kit on top of it.

 

[NosLaser]

<<<Thanx for the input. I use my Stealth for light-to-light racing. The AWD gives it good traction. The AWD system also steals a lot of power at the top-end. I would like to build a top-end crusher that will beat a Single-turbo 500RWHP Supra from a roll. What a ya think? Ya, if you find the LS-1/LT-1 TT link let me know. That would be awesome. Although I don't know that the diffs/engine can handle the kind of power I want to make(LS-1/LT-1 cars). They would have to be upgraded too, which would cost double the cost with the forced induction kit on top of it.>>>

I hate to break it to you, but o make the power you are looking to make, it is going to cost money. Lots of it. I would estimate for a total package, the cost will prolly run near 30K. But you will have a car with near daily driving ability, that makes 1100+ HP to the wheels without nitrous, and if you need more power, you CAN always spray it. Don't let the Supra guys B.S. you by saying they only spent like 50 bux and now make 700 RWHP. It is B.S. Nothing more than B.S. Here is my honest opinion. Supra guy are just Honda guys with money. Period. I would say less than 30% of them do their own work. If you want a car that will not be touched by a Supra, or ANY other import, go with a Twin Turbo V8. If you'd like, I can partially walk you through a buildup.

Regards,

 

[IPT]

Lotus makes a nice v8 last time I knew... How about a Hennessy Viper?? V-10 baby!!

 

[twin-turbos]

Originally posted by NosLaser
<<<Thanx for the input. I use my Stealth for light-to-light racing. The AWD gives it good traction. The AWD system also steals a lot of power at the top-end. I would like to build a top-end crusher that will beat a Single-turbo 500RWHP Supra from a roll. What a ya think? Ya, if you find the LS-1/LT-1 TT link let me know. That would be awesome. Although I don't know that the diffs/engine can handle the kind of power I want to make(LS-1/LT-1 cars). They would have to be upgraded too, which would cost double the cost with the forced induction kit on top of it.>>>

I hate to break it to you, but o make the power you are looking to make, it is going to cost money. Lots of it. I would estimate for a total package, the cost will prolly run near 30K. But you will have a car with near daily driving ability, that makes 1100+ HP to the wheels without nitrous, and if you need more power, you CAN always spray it. Don't let the Supra guys B.S. you by saying they only spent like 50 bux and now make 700 RWHP. It is B.S. Nothing more than B.S. Here is my honest opinion. Supra guy are just Honda guys with money. Period. I would say less than 30% of them do their own work. If you want a car that will not be touched by a Supra, or ANY other import, go with a Twin Turbo V8. If you'd like, I can partially walk you through a buildup.

Regards,

I'd appreciate your help. What V-8 platfrom would you recommend to start off with? Supras have me respect because the stock engine can handle all that power from a 3.0L. It might be a little overated. I don't believe a stock V-8 from a Mustang/Camaro/Vette can handle more than 500 Turbo's hp without mods to the engine. This is what I've heard and may be completely wrong. Help is of course is appreciated. Thanx

 

[NosLaser]

Personally, I'd start off with an F-body or perhaps a C4 Corvette for stability's sake. You could use an SN95 or Fox body stang, however I wouldn't take one much over 120, let alone the 250!!! PLUS speeds a Twin Turbo F-bod/C4 would be realistically and whole-heartedly capable of. I am going to spill the beans on the project I will have in the works shortly. I'm going to be building up a Twin Turbo 358ci V8. It will more than likely go into a '94 Firehawk I may be purchasing from a friend of mine.

A 358 is a good place to start because it has just about the most ideal rod/stroke ratio you can have. (It's the size they use for Nascar) A 358 is a 400 bock bored .060" over, with a small crank (out of a 283 or something along those lines) You can easily spend 10-12K on the motor alone. All the machine work on the block, a good set of heads with a small combustion chamber for a nice tight quench area. The ideal setup for a turbocharged car is to have a smallish combustion chamber, large valves, and dished pistons. Ideally, you don't want to go over 60cc's of combustion chamber volume. On a turbocharged application, you'll lose burn efficiency. You have a lot of cylinder pressure on a turbo car, this energy is ready to go off; it's so volatile, and the effect you are looking for is to get that energy as close to the spark plug as possible; you don't want it mushrooming out to the outer layers of the combustion chamber. When it does that, and it ignites out in the "outskirts" for lack of a better term, that is detonation. It's hard to explain on the internet, but basically, you want a dished piston to keep the air/fuel mixture in a nice tight ball of energy, and a smaller combustion chamber to keep it there. It is extremely important at this power level to cc all the combustion chambers so that they are the same volume. If you have differences in combustion chamber volume, it's like having differences in compression, and differences in burn efficiency. You also want the tops of the pistons and the combustion chambers to be as perfectly smooth as possible to avoid any hot spots. I would also possibly incorporate a dry-sump oiling system for ease of turbo placement.

You would need a custom intercooler, custom headers, and piping, and properly sized turbo's. I would say Twin 60-1's would make the HP level you seek. Obviously, you would need some suspension upgrades and a new Rear end; but they make rear end conversion kits to a Ford 9 inch for just under 2K for everything.

I would recommend using the SpeedPro engine management system now known as the FAST. Here's why. Since a turbocharged car is not rpm dependant, it is load dependant, you will need some form of map sensor which is the most accurate way of measuring manifold pressure. The MAS on a Corvette for instance is a hot wire setup. The way this works is there is a wire in the MAS that is set to stay at a certain temperature...let's figuratively say 200 degrees fahrenheit because I don't own a Vette and I'm really not sure exactly what the temperature is actually set at. If more air passes over that wire, it will take more energy to keep it at 200 degrees, and if less air passes over that wire, it will take less energy to keep it at 200 degrees. Based on how much energy must be exerted to keep that wire at that set temperature, the ECU adjusts accordingly for fuel. Would you really want to rely on that in a turbocharged vehicle?? This is why I recommend going with the FAST system. It has 4 things that are essential to a turbocharged vehicle. Number one, it has a map sensor which will again, provide your most accurate manifold pressure readings. Number 2, it has a wide band O2 sensor that will save your butt, Number 3, it has a knock sensor which is self explanatory, and number 4, it has a target air/fuel ratio table which coupled with the accuracy of a wideband O2 sensor, and the quickness of an adjustable knock sensor, allows you to keep on top of what's actually going on inside the motor. Let's say you go uphill or something, get on it, the turbo has more load on it due to weight (obviously) and let's say you experience a boost spike, or other phenomenon that causes a lean condition. This system will immediately detect that condition (because it is out of your 'target air/fuel ratio') and it will dump fuel.

Other than that, a good set of rods/pistons, good quality machine work and blueprinting, and you will have a motor that makes hella power, and stays reliable. Let me know if you need any more info.

Regards,