Do people tack weld the converter bolts w/kiggly flexpate?

[awdspyder98]

Just wondering if people are tack welding the flexplate to converter bolts on the kiggly flexplate? Just wondering if the problem persists on the bolts loosing after the install?

[burkgonzo]

I red locktited mine, no issues yet.

[91stocker]

I've never heard of that on any application tbh. Plus I thought that was the point of going with the kiggly plate?

Right in the description: "Thicker and Stiffer design helps keep bolts tight in high power applications".

[turboglenn]

As a Machinist and Weldor (different than a "welder") I would advise against EVER welding to the flex plate, the reason being that the weld will be strong which is good but the area efffeted by the heat of the weld (HAZ or "heat affected zone) becomes the weakest point in the material, so the bolts would then have more chance to wear at the holes making them oblong and creating play where the bolts can do damage or be loose enough to take a shock load from launching and slowing and eventually shear in two.. The tacks wouldn't be strong enough to fight the torsional forces of the driveline even if this wasn't the case. Most tack welds can be broken by hand, so your best bet is safety wire and or red loctite the bolts, safety wire being my choice although drilling the bolts for the safety wire would require at least carbide or cobalt bits (not cobalt brand from lowes though )

[awdspyder98]

[QUOTE=91stocker;153067032]I've never heard of that on any application tbh. QUOTE]

Im suprised.. Most autos that are over 350-400whp usually has to tack weld the bolts so they dont come loose.. esp if your balance shafts are deleted. Tack welding + stock flex plate has held up for a few years for me, maybe Im one of the lucky ones.. but as soon as I hit over 450+whp.. thats when the flex plate broke.

[tkelly27]

Why don't more people use safety wire? It's so cool and works so well.

[awdspyder98]

Originally Posted by tkelly27

Why don't more people use safety wire? It's so cool and works so well.

I personally dont use saftey wire because its not available for us to purchase the bolts predrilled. I dont have the equipment to be able to drill my own bolts. Im assuming you need a special drill bit.

[ramsack]

Originally Posted by turboglenn

As a Machinist and Weldor (different than a "welder")

That's kind of like the snobby people with English accents (fake or real) who insist that "flutist" is incorrect and that they must be called "flautist."

[99gst_racer]

Yup, safety wire is definitely the way to go. You'll spend a little money doing it, but doing something right almost always costs more. Gotta pay to play. And it's never a bad thing for a 'car guy' to be adding to his tool collection.

wire and pliers - $30
drilling fixture - $40
carbide drill bit - $10

So, for $80, you now have the ability to drill and safety any bolt on your vehicle. Do a few for your friends and make your money back instantly.

[91stocker]

Whats wrong with sfi plate, arp bolts, and loctite? It works on a 1100hp baja for years, a 600whp big block, several 400whp dsm's.

How does weld and wire effect the balance? A tack with enough penetration to be of any use will have a measurable amount of weight. And like glenn said above, the heat from the welds will most definitely effect the strength of the bolt and the plate. All these ideas seemed "rigged" imo

[UofACATS]

Originally Posted by tkelly27

Why don't more people use safety wire?

Regarding safety wire, one would attach them all together correct? I've no experience with flexplate-bolt issues and I hope I never do, but would the wire prevent them from turning in the slightest?

How "loose" does that bolt have to get before it can shear? I understand and appreciate the concept of safety wire, but I'm not sure its function is to maintain the initial torque of the fastener in the same way red locktite is.


Kiggly's suggestion noted here: Kiggly Racing - kigglyracing.com

[91stocker]

Bingo, straight from kiggly

"Bolts - in all applications, converter bolts should be tightened to 50ft-lbs or greater with red loctite. Re-torque the bolts after the first heat cycle."

"Up to about 500whp, 100ft-lbs with red loctite works fine."

"Up to about 700-800whp, 130ft-lbs with red loctite works fine"

[snowborder714]

Originally Posted by UofACATS

Regarding safety wire, one would attach them all together correct?

You'd at least have to safety wire 2 bolts together, if not more.

[importracr317]

Agreed with 91stocker.

I welded two flex plates together and used red loctite on the bolts. If the plate break, I'll pick up a kiggly plate (assuming he's making 7 bolt plates now...). I saw ARP converter bolts for our cars on one of our vendor websites the other day, I might look into those, but tightening stock bolts real tight with red threadlocker should be enough.

[awdspyder98]

Originally Posted by 99gst_racer

Yup, safety wire is definitely the way to go. You'll spend a little money doing it, but doing something right almost always costs more. Gotta pay to play. And it's never a bad thing for a 'car guy' to be adding to his tool collection.

wire and pliers - $30
drilling fixture - $40
carbide drill bit - $10

So, for $80, you now have the ability to drill and safety any bolt on your vehicle. Do a few for your friends and make your money back instantly.

Interesting.. You wouldn't have a link with a write up on how to do this would you?

[snowborder714]

Here's one that shows for a bike.
ROGUE RC51.org Safety Wiring Guide

If not, this should find you plenty of info
Let me google that for you

[tkelly27]

Originally Posted by UofACATS

would the wire prevent them from turning in the slightest?

Yeah, it puts tension on the bolt to pull it towards being torqued down

Safety wire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just got up close to a big military gun and there is safety wire on everything. If it's going to keep the bolts on that tight, it will keep your converter tight.

[UofACATS]

Originally Posted by tkelly27

Yeah, it puts tension on the bolt to pull it towards being torqued down

Ah, I get it. The bolts attach to one another in a staggered fashion, each bolt effectively tightening the other. Assuming the wire tension was properly set this seems like an effective solution.

Still, I am yet convinced it's a better option than red locktite in this application.

Originally Posted by tkelly27

I just got up close to a big military gun and there is safety wire on everything. If it's going to keep the bolts on that tight, it will keep your converter tight.

Although notable and certainly field-tested, I'd surmise each operate under distinct conditions. One of the benefits of safety wire is easy visual confirmation. The big gun benefits, the converter does not.

The example I would rely on is Kiggly's race car.

[99gst_racer]

Kiggly said he had tied safety wire back in the day on the converter bolts. It did fine at keeping the bolts from spinning, but the issue they had back then was the bolts were stretching and allowing the converter to come loose. Either way, it's not a bad idea.

It would be sweet is there was an 8740 chromoly bolt option for us.

[99gst_racer]

I assume the 2G bolts are 1.25 pitch? 12mm x 1.25 x 16mm long?

ARP offers a set for Porsche that are damn close. The thread is right (assuming the pitch is 1.25 on a 2G) but they're 19.5mm long.

[turbosax2]

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[91stocker]

Originally Posted by 99gst_racer

I assume the 2G bolts are 1.25 pitch? 12mm x 1.25 x 16mm long?

ARP offers a set for Porsche that are damn close. The thread is right but they're 19.5mm long.

Hmm, that reminded me of a line from the kiggly link.

"We expect to have our first run of 2g custom bolts in early 2012 as there are no available options for a low-head bolt that fits. Until then, either use OEM bolts which are a little short, or grind the bolt heads shorter on an M10x16mm. Crankshaft bolts should be OEM. The 17mm long option from the 1g 5-spd is about the right length. You can also use OEM ring gear bolts cut to length. "

Originally Posted by turbosax2

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Well never mind lol

[99gst_racer]

Originally Posted by turbosax2

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Thanks for the links, Eric. I had no idea ARP offers flexplate bolts for the 4G. Oddly enough, I don't even see them listed in their catalog but those part numbers do come up in my system at work. Time to get a set on order.

[turbosax2]

Does your system show lengths of those bolts? I'd like to find out the lengths of the flywheel bolts they offer. I sent ARP an email but haven't heard back from them yet.

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[99gst_racer]

Nope, no dimensions. I'll call their tech department on Monday.

[Prib9671]

Don't know if I should ask this here but I've got about 15 miles on my new setup which includes the kiggly flexplate but I just reused my oem bolts with red loctite torqued to 50ft lbs. I was going to retorque them since I am past the first "heat cycle". Can I torque them to 100ft lbs now (I'm hoping to get to about 500hp) even thought I originally only torqued them to 50ft lbs? Also, now that these are getting retorqued does the red loctite still have its holding power. It just seems to me that you are kind of breaking its holding power now that the bolt has been turned after the loctite has dried and set up. Any info to clear this up for me would be appreciated.

[99gst_racer]

FYI- Per ARP's tech department:

Both flexplate bolt kits are 12mm X 1.25. The UHL of the 6-bolt kit (107-2901) is .700". The UHL of the 7-bolt kit (107-2902) is .460". Torque spec for both is 95 ft/lbs using Loctite 242 on the threads and ARP ultra torque (or standard moly lube) under the bolt head flange.

[doubleclutch99]

Originally Posted by Prib9671

Don't know if I should ask this here but I've got about 15 miles on my new setup which includes the kiggly flexplate but I just reused my oem bolts with red loctite torqued to 50ft lbs. I was going to retorque them since I am past the first "heat cycle". Can I torque them to 100ft lbs now (I'm hoping to get to about 500hp) even thought I originally only torqued them to 50ft lbs? Also, now that these are getting retorqued does the red loctite still have its holding power. It just seems to me that you are kind of breaking its holding power now that the bolt has been turned after the loctite has dried and set up. Any info to clear this up for me would be appreciated.

I torque the flex plate to crank bolts to 100 ft/lbs .
And the convertor bolts to 55 ft/lbs before and after the first heat cycle. I don't think the convertor will handle 100 ft/lbs of torque without pulling the threads. And the 1g guys can order arp torque convertor bolts for late model GM convertors and then grind them to lenght I bought mine from summit racing . I hope this helps.

[Prib9671]

Originally Posted by doubleclutch99

I torque the flex plate to crank bolts to 100 ft/lbs .
And the convertor bolts to 55 ft/lbs before and after the first heat cycle. I don't think the convertor will handle 100 ft/lbs of torque without pulling the threads. And the 1g guys can order arp torque convertor bolts for late model GM convertors and then grind them to lenght I bought mine from summit racing . I hope this helps.

Great thanks. I will just retorque the stock torque converter bolts to 55 ft lbs.