Water/Meth kit or nitrous???

[domthebomb11208]

I am trying to decide on which kit i should go with i know the water/meth kit allows me to run high boost but does it help with spool up? Now i know nitrous helps with spool up but does it help with high boost? Can i run both? Or does both mean a explosition of my motor? Can someone try pointing me in the right direction.

 

[andymoraitis]

If you think about it, two things related to exhaust temperatre help create faster spool (these are not the only two things, but we'll confine it to these for the purposes of this discussion)

1. Additional heat from running leaner A/F's
2. Lower timing

Typically, with a methanol injection setup, you'd run MORE timing and leaner A/F's. If we treated this as a hypothetical model, the effect is that one heats the exhaust charge while the other doesn't. Run a motor with higher timing and look at the EGT's in the presence of adequate fuel and absence of knock. They go DOWN. That's why the tuners who run low timing like I do run forged internals to handle the heat.

At this point, the entire discussion is hypothetical. Who cares if methanol injection slows spool by a small amount? The fact of the matter is you can run much more boost and lean the A/F's for greater performance. The end result is what matters the most, not whether spool was affected by a few hundred RPM (if it was at all).

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Thanks Andy for the sum up on that one.

Dustin

 

[shleppy]

At least with my experience with a gt30r turbo water/meth dosen't really help or hurt spooll. With the gt30 and 35r turbos boost is pretty much all or nothing-once you hit 10psi 30psi is at most half a second later. However since it does let you be alot more aggressive with your tuning, its possible you can do a better job of tuning for quick spool using it. Nitrous is great for the track, but nowhere as user friendly on the street with daily driving and constant on and off boosting.

 

[andymoraitis]

At least with my experience with a gt30r turbo water/meth dosen't really help or hurt spooll. With the gt30 and 35r turbos boost is pretty much all or nothing-once you hit 10psi 30psi is at most half a second later. However since it does let you be alot more aggressive with your tuning, its possible you can do a better job of tuning for quick spool using it. Nitrous is great for the track, but nowhere as user friendly on the street with daily driving and constant on and off boosting.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for posting some real world experiences since hypothesizing is a pain in the ass.

 

[andymoraitis]

Thanks Andy for the sum up on that one.

Dustin

No worries Dustin. As a "non-engineering" type, I often struggle with things like this. I know the effect, but sometimes I struggle to explain the cause. I'd love to see someone with intimate engineering knowledge get a hold of this and really let loose. All I can do is analyze based on what I know to be in terms of basic principles and hope that it holds up from a theoretical standpoint based on what "should" make sense.

 

[Spyder1]

can anybody answer my quesion..??

 

[95GSXCO]

if it is about when you can run the water/meth injection. then yes you can run it on a stock car if you would like too. you do not have to have any mods to run it.

 

[domthebomb11208]

well thanks guys you've been a lot of help i think i'm gonna go with the meth injection and see if i can tune it for 28 pounds w/gt35r....well see how it goes

 

[andymoraitis]

Keep us posted on your results. I think you're really going to like it.

Good luck,

Andy

 

[domthebomb11208]

thanks andy you've been a lot of help

 

[andymoraitis]

No worries. I just wish I was smarter about knowing why some things work the way they do.

 

[domthebomb11208]

Andy how much do u suggest i advance my intake cam? If it helps wonders like u say i'll go and buy them.

 

[shleppy]

28psi with h2o/meth injection and 93 octane should be a breeze. It's alot like tuning with race gas. Don't forget little things like a big air filter and a 4" intake to help with spool. A tubular exhaust manifold will help too.

 

[domthebomb11208]

u say it's like tuning for race fuel? so your saying i should be able to tune for 35psi? or u guys thing thats a little too much?

 

[shleppy]

It depends on your setup how much boost you'll need. The more air your motor can flow the less boost you'll need to max out the turbo at a certain rpm. I've maxed out my gt30 with 28 psi at a little less then 7300 rpms. Sure I can up the boost, but I'll just get the same airflow at a lower rpm. My friend Dj made 578whp at only 30psi and 7000 rpms with his 2.0 motored gt35r with the bolt on slowboy housing on a fairly conservative tune. He could run 35 psi but wouldn't really make much more power. We figure he should get 600+whp with a little more tuning and 32 psi. In other words, get it installed and see what you need to do to make the power you want rather then just shooting for a certain psi.

 

[andymoraitis]

Andy how much do u suggest i advance my intake cam? If it helps wonders like u say i'll go and buy them.

When you advance the intake cam, you can lose a bit of top end, so the best way to find the best balance between spool and useable power is on a dyno. Since I have a stroker and don't rev above 7000 anyway, it wouldn't be a big deal for me, but if you plan on running 8000+ it may matter to you. In any event, 3 degrees is usually a good place to start.

 

[domthebomb11208]

ok i'll try it. About how many pounds should i set up the meth kit to turn on at?

 

[shleppy]

Do you mean what psi or how much to inject? That also depends on what kit you plan on getting-single, dual stage, progressive etc.

 

[domthebomb11208]

just a single stage

 

[slipstream808]

Spyder, to answer your question, yes there is a cooling effect.

Part one of it is with the injection of the NO2 itself. It's cooler than the air in the intake charge. So that means it cools down the intake charge (some).

The real magic is in the cylinder. At whatever temperature NO2 breaks down to O2 and Nitrogen. In order for that to happen, you need a way to excite the molecule (in this case heat). The heat is required for the atoms to become excited and "break apart". So in this process, some of the heat is absorbed.

 

[Newlogics]

Getting back to your original question, Meth and n2o are to completely difference beeasts, and there is nothing to stop you from running both. It's hardly anymore of a nightmare to tune as each of them separately. However, as been stated before, n2o is only good for 1/4mi.
I personally run 100% meth injection, and I can vouch that it does wonders. I'm able to run 28psi on CA 91 pump (and CA 91 is probably worse then 89 elswhere) without know on a AGP RS65.
While theoretically, meth injection should increase lag, I've been unable to spot much difference at all. I see 28 psi around 4200, about what I expected out of that turbo. 1Gal. meth tank lasts me about 2.5 fuel tanks of daily driving with pulls here and there. I use 800cc nozzle set to actuate at 10psi ( the reason it actuates so early, is because it takes a bit for a pump to prime and start pumping, so I actually see meth going in around 14psi). Above 5K rpm, I'm pulling close to 22% fuel when compared to non-meth map, so basically, up on top, methanol makes up for a huge chunk of my total fuel.

I have also rewired the system a bit differently to speed up meth delivery and reduce priming time. I have it set up with arm switch actually switching pump on, which pressurizes lines to 150psi, and pressure switch opening solenoid, at which point meth lines are fully primed, and injection begins virtualy instantly. This system is possible, because pump already has built-in pressure switch, so as soon as it's at 150psi, it'll shut off by itself.

One more thing I have to add, is that there are lots of those 'kits' on ebay now, but I find it hard to trust those quick-release fittings that are supplied with most kits. When we're taking about highly flamable fluid and 150psi repssure, I prefer to know that my lines are fuel injection-grade and secured with clamps. I have installed at least 5-6 of those ebay kits on customer's cars, and from my observation, the lines they supply with the kit get hard and brittle in a about a week (I suppose from running 100% meth, which they were hardly designed for), in 3 cases I've seen those 'quick-release' fittings springing a leak, and 1 case of line completely blown off.

You make your judgements.