This summer

[murray1]

Hi, my car is a 97 Eagle Talon ESI. This is what I am planning on doing this summer. I don't have a lot of money so am trying to get the best bang for buck.

Tune up

Intake

Ram air intake
Walbro 190 lph fuel pump, i need one so this is what i am getting
Throttle body bore

Exhaust

Header- pacesetter,megan or obx.
High flow cat/test pipe?
2 1/2" tsudo cat back, I hear it is really nice and cheap, or other?

Accessories

Timing Belt, tensioner, tensioner pulley, water pump etc.
Other belts
Underdrive pulley - AFX maybe bomz

Does this all sound good?
Any preferences on the headers/any better ideas for exhaust?
Anyone know what emissions is like in Alberta. I know we don't have to get regular testing here but I am just wondering if it is "ok" to run without a cat, what happens if we are caught?
What is the difference between X and N1 type tsudo exhaust?
I see AFX is the way to go but also haven't heard anything bad about bomz and its 1/2 the price. Any comments?
Am I missing anything or should anything be changed?

 

[chris712vt]

good to see you mentioned a general tune up and timing belt/accessories on your list. very imporant to have it running well and reliable.

next is a big question - do you see yourself wanting real power in the future with it? aka do you plan to turbo it? I have done everything on your list minus the upgraded fuel pump and TB, plus lots more. Sure most things I've done (and that you are planning to do) will help, make it run more efficiently and add a little power, but in my case I want to step up to the forced induction level now. And because of that it would have been smarter for me to hold off on minor mods that will end up being replaced or upgraded - ie the I/H/E.

I apologize for going on and on but basically, yes what you listed will help, but only to a certain degree. If that's all you want, or all you can afford, go on ahead! I'm just saying that planning ahead is key to saving money in the long run haha.

Now on to your questions. As everyone usually states on here, any intake will suffice. The cone filter is the most important part, and having a solid pipe with constant diameter is good too. But when it comes to short ram vs cold air, I don't know how much better the cold air really is. I use an ebay CAI, it wasn't much more than the short rams, and a high quality filter.

The stock fuel pump is fine for what you have listed, but if your current one needs to be replaced and your future plans will demand more fuel then why not upgrade now. Like I said, you're doing a good job thinking ahead and not doing things twice in that case.

I don't have a larger TB, I assume it will help as long as you have the other I/H/E to match the increased airflow. But I don't know for sure if it's worth upgrading, wait and see what others say.

Pacesetter is a popular header, good quality as far as I know. Test pipe will give you the open flow, but it will also be louder and you won't pass emissions if it is required in your state. And I run the Tsudo 2.5" SS catback. Good quality, my only complaint was a loud drone with it in the 3-3.5k rpm range... right at highway cruising speed. And with my 4 hour drives to and from school it got annoying so I had the resonator relocated and a second one welded in to quiet it down. But the tone of the exhaust all depends on your other mods that go with it. The Tsudo N1 is the Apexi N1 knockoff. As far as I know the type-X is a copy of the Greddy Evo, but check before you buy, I may be wrong. Had that one been available when I bought mine I would have chosen the type-X, I like the Greddy Evo way more than the N1 style, I just wouldn't pay 500 bucks for the real thing.

Once again sorry for going on an on, just trying to be helpful and share my $.02 - and more experienced guys on here, correct me if I'm wrong but I think what I've said is good info.

 

[shiftdrift06]

Not to shabby. But

What do you need a fuel pump for?

Headers, Pacesetter is good, its a 4-2-1 design. The others are 4-1.

Tsudo, is cheap and nice sounding. But I prefer a Stock Muffler section from a Stock GS-T.

I know in Tx, Its illegal to run with no CAT due to emission testing. You can be fined. I guess just don't get caught. Also, you will most likely throw a CEL with testpipes/highflow CAT.

Get AF/X UDP, It comes with free belts from HowellAutomotive.com

However, Don't expect to be much quicker with these mods.

 

[BigRand]

Everything looks real good man, glad to see you did your own research.

If your going with an underdrive pulley, AF/x is the only way to go.

as to the highflow cat vs test pipe debate, it really depends on where you live or planning on living, if you live in a place that has emissions or is going to be getting them sooner or later or you plan to move to a place where they have alot of emission standards, then its probably better to get a highflow cat from magnaflow
(P.S. I have a buddy with a 2.5" magnaflow if you or anyone is interested), if you don't have to worry about emissions anytime soon then a test pipe is great because its so cheap.

 

[XMasta19]

Go with AF/X for sure on the udp. The Tsudo exhaust is nice, and doesn't necessarily have to be replaced as soon as you go turbo if that is in the future. Header is good too, and just a cheap mandrel bent ebay short ram intake with a good filter is the way to go as well. Getting all of your preventative maintenance is also a plus, good job

 

[murray1]

next is a big question - do you see yourself wanting real power in the future with it? aka do you plan to turbo it?

No I am not really planning on turbo, I am thinking about maybe in the future doing the internals and such and then going nitrous but if I decide to go turbo I will just pick up a turbo car instead.

Now on to your questions. As everyone usually states on here, any intake will suffice. The cone filter is the most important part, and having a solid pipe with constant diameter is good too. But when it comes to short ram vs cold air, I don't know how much better the cold air really is.

I am going ram air just because of the snow/rain we get here. I don't want to worry about a wet snow packed intake all winter. What I plan on doing is buying a cheap ram air kit off ebay and then getting a quality k&n filter to go with it. Does anyone have any input on a fair ebay kit?

The stock fuel pump is fine for what you have listed, but if your current one needs to be replaced and your future plans will demand more fuel then why not upgrade now. Like I said, you're doing a good job thinking ahead and not doing things twice in that case.

My fuel pump is going at least that is what a fellow mechanic believes. When I start car it will often just turn around and die unless I give it some gas. If I turn the key to the on position a couple times and then start it it doesn't die right away. It usually still needs a little gas for the first little bit but then runs fair, the odd little jerky start from stop but that is it.

I don't have a larger TB, I assume it will help as long as you have the other I/H/E to match the increased airflow. But I don't know for sure if it's worth upgrading, wait and see what others say.

I have done some research here, dsmtalk and 2gnt and have found stuff on both saying that boring throttle body enhances throttle response. I only will bore it out to about 55 mm, stock I believe is 52 or 53, i hear you can bore them to 56 before it needs to be strengthened.

Test pipe will give you the open flow, but it will also be louder and you won't pass emissions if it is required in your state.

I am sad to hear the you like many other americans know very little about Canada. Alberta is where I am from and we have provinces not states. It is so wierd that we spend half our time in history class learning about you guys but you learn nothing of us. I will always remember an episode of are you smarter then a 5th grader in which the contestant didn't know that Canada was the country to the north of USA. Here is some more food for thought, did you know that Canada defeated the United States in a war? If not search up the war of 1812. Canada was the main reason that the sates weren't victorious. And they thought that is was just a matter of marching up here and we would surrender . Oh and I searched about and confirmed what I thought, Alberta has no emission testing and is very slack on catbacks so I am thinking test pipe, maybe with clamps so that it is possible to swap in a cat if needed. Just another proof on the superiority of our country .

And I run the Tsudo 2.5" SS catback. Good quality, my only complaint was a loud drone with it in the 3-3.5k rpm range... right at highway cruising speed.

I hear that it sounds nice, is a good price and isn't as loud as other exhausts. I might have to get more information from you about this resonator fix you did if I get all this stuff undertaken and it is a little too loud.

Sorry for rambling along and the history lesson but thought it might just be interesting.

 

[murray1]

As for any other severe modifications. I am interested in what I have read about the megasquirt ecu. I haven't been able to search it up enough though. How difficult is it to get going? Is it possible to set it up easily close to stock and then play with it? Should a person expect fair downtime if they are just trying to figure it out and use it?

I don't have much experience with a lot of these things as I am only 19 but I am pretty bright and can figure almost anything out if I set my mind to it. Just finished 1st year engineering at University of Alberta with a 3.9 gpa. I am going into mechanical engineering and will hopefully understand and be able to think up some pretty cool stuff in the automotive world, this car is my daily driver but also a car that I would like to learn on because of all the different things one can do to it.

 

[spartan]

you should change your fuel filter as well if you are having fuel related issues. When I changed mine it was so clogged that I was suprised my car was running at all, plus it is relatively cheap.

 

[chris712vt]

hey man sorry if that bothered you, but in all honesty I didn't even look at your location when I wrote that response. I guess it's just second nature for me to assume whoever I'm talking to is in the US. That was my mistake.

, I do know where Canada is located though, and I know you have provinces rather than states. I can even stretch my mind enough to name a few of your major cities as well!

Anyway about Megasquirt, I'm sure it would help you run better, you could probably enhance the gains from your other mods with a good tune, but from what I've read it isn't as simple as plug it in and there you go... but I'm sure you can figure it out. In fact I am thinking about getting MSnS before I go turbo just because it is relatively cheap and It would be nice to get my car running smoother while still NA.

And I have also heard the larger TB will give you better throttle response as well as increased flow, I meant that without the I/H/E to go with it it may not be as significant a difference.

 

[murray1]

hey man sorry if that bothered you, but in all honesty I didn't even look at your location

Anyone know what emissions is like in Alberta.

Didn't have to read location just the post. . No it didn't bother me just thought I would try and educate some of you southern neighbors.

you should change your fuel filter as well if you are having fuel related issues. When I changed mine it was so clogged that I was suprised my car was running at all, plus it is relatively cheap.

I can't believe I hadn't thought of that I am going to do that within the next couple days and see what happens.


I am going to search megasquirt up some more and see what I find. Does anyone have any idea how much these mods would affect my car with and/or without the megasquirt ecu? Also is nitrous a bad idea without doing internals, my car has around 200 k kms approx 120 k miles. A buddy of mine has a nitrous kit from a daytona he used to have and could get it for cheap, im not even sure if it would work though.

 

[Slo2gen]

Just to let you know where you will be around whp wise, I have the AEM V2 intake, 4-1 header and down pipe, tsudo n1 exhaust, AFX udp, no ac or powersteering. I don't have an enlarged tb on this engine, or a testpipe/highflow cat. I put down 128 whp on a Dynojet. I also have a wet nitrous kit and at the time only had a 50 shot on it. It jumped up to 166 whp. I am now running a 75 shot and I have 143k on a stock engine. All you need is to do some simple test and mait. to make sure your car is in good runing order and get some good wires and 1 range colder plugs and you are set!

 

[murray1]

I had a question about timing belt products. I have noticed that there are both hydraulic and mechanical, mainly hydraulic for the 420a. They sell timing belt kits to replace the hydraulic with mechanical. Is the mechanical tensioner worth changing over? Also what all does the AFX come with in terms of belts from howell automotive?

I just finished pricing out all my parts and this is what I ended up with. Just wondering if any of these sound a little high. They are all after shipping to Alberta.
Fuel pump 110
Intake 50
Header 225
Cat back exhaust 280, too bad shipping is the same as the exhaust itself
UDP 160
Belts etc 200
Total 1025

I plan on doing all the work by myself with maybe a little bit of help of a friend who is a mechanic so will hopefully not have to pay any outrageous shop fees.

Thanks alot for the help so far.

 

[chris712vt]

thanks for that info, I've always been curious what the standard I/H/E/UDP do for us as far as power to the wheels goes. Aren't we like 111 or 113 whp stock? That's a gain of 15-20ish roughly.

 

[dr1665]

, I do know where Canada is located though, and I know you have provinces rather than states. I can even stretch my mind enough to name a few of your major cities as well!

They also have whack-ass "zip codes" for their mail. W T F does "W6T 6T6" mean? Oh yeah! And don't forget Bryan Adams! Canada gave us Bryan Adams too.

That post rocked. Made my day to see the FNG drop a history lesson on everyone's ass.

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[BigRand]

I am sad to hear the you like many other americans know very little about Canada. Alberta is where I am from and we have provinces not states. It is so wierd that we spend half our time in history class learning about you guys but you learn nothing of us. I will always remember an episode of are you smarter then a 5th grader in which the contestant didn't know that Canada was the country to the north of USA. Here is some more food for thought, did you know that Canada defeated the United States in a war? If not search up the war of 1812. Canada was the main reason that the sates weren't victorious. And they thought that is was just a matter of marching up here and we would surrender . Oh and I searched about and confirmed what I thought, Alberta has no emission testing and is very slack on catbacks so I am thinking test pipe, maybe with clamps so that it is possible to swap in a cat if needed. Just another proof on the superiority of our country .



Sorry for rambling along and the history lesson but thought it might just be interesting.

I was born and raised in the tdot (toronto), and I still go out there to visit and I got family in B.C. as well, some of the candian laws are very strict depending on where you are. B.C. has a no front window tint policy, and I know toronto doesn't allow radar dectors period...I'm glad to see you check what kind of restrictions are surrounding where you live.

 

[murray1]

They also have whack-ass "zip codes" for their mail. W T F does "W6T 6T6" mean? Oh yeah! And don't forget Bryan Adams! Canada gave us Bryan Adams too.

That post rocked. Made my day to see the FNG drop a history lesson on everyone's ass.

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Haha that is Chretien on a good day. Here is a pic of why you guys can't find Osama Bin Laden.

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Oh dang no wonder you guys can't finish the war on terror.

*this is just a joke*

 

[BigRand]

Man becareful, you know there is gonna be a tap on your ip address now....good luck crossing the border now...

 

[murray1]

Man becareful, you know there is gonna be a tap on your ip address now....good luck crossing the border now...

there is probably a satellite watching me right now, phone and internet along with every room are probably tapped and a sniper with his rifle aimed at my head in case I do anything fishy.


On a more serious note, I asked whether it is really recommended to switch from hydraulic to mechanical tensioner for timing belt and also what belts are included with howell automotive UDP. Thanks for the information so far.

 

[chris712vt]

I could be wrong because I got my howell motor through a friend, but I thought both the AC/PS belt and the Alt belt came with their AFX UDP.

Sorry, I'm no help with the t-belt tensioner.

 

[link16]

I liked the hydraulic tensioner, it was fun grenading it on my timing belt. I had some joy of doing my timing.

 

[SurrealDSM]

with my experience with a test pipe it left me with very low back pressure but when i got the high flow i felt a difference

 

[Locke]

with my experience with a test pipe it left me with very low back pressure

That is the reason for putting it on.

 

[murray1]

Well I didn't get any of this done this past summer. I had planned for it but after doing a compression check and finding out that my compression was not that great I decided to leave the bolt ons and didn't have any money for other stuff.

It looks like I may have some more money laying around this coming summer though so I have spent the last 3 or 4 days now searching and searching on both here and 2gnt about building an engine.

I had been thinking/planning on finding a new vehicle for next year and I know that I will not get much for my car so I am thinking about making it into a project car and picking something else up for cheap for when this thing isn't running.

What I would like out of this project car is a DD non turbo, possibly nitrous, not overly fast but snappy and fun to drive. I figure if I can get to 140-150 WHP then I will be doing pretty good.

Here is what I am thinking about now.

Build bottom end(here is a list of parts that I made on CIMotorSports)

Connecting Rods: Eagle Connecting Rods #CRS5472N3D
Pistons: JE 10.5:1 .020 #242870
Oil Pump: Melling Oil Pump
Rod Bearings: Clevite .020mm o/s #CB-1635P-.020
Main Bearings: Clevite 96-UP .020 o/s #MS-2028P-.020
Water Pump: Airtex Water Pump #AW7150
Timing Components: Tensioner, Belt & Bearings
Head Bolts: ARP Head Studs #141-4202
Main Studs: ARP Main Studs #141-5801
Head Gasket: Cometic MLS .020 #C5497-040
Gasket Kit: Felpro Complete Gasket Kit

From my searching these seem like the parts that I would want to get although I am not sure about the bearings and what the different o/s and stuff mean.

I would also have the block bored and all that good stuff. The parts come out to just over 1800 plus shipping, I am unsure what machining would cost.

1)Does this seem like a reasonable/realistic build for what I would like to achieve?

2)Is CIMotorsports a good company? They have the best site and really the only one that you can build what you want. I am sure there are other good places but I am having trouble finding them.

Megasquirt

I have read up on megasquirt and would love to at least try and set it up.

3)If I build my bottom end would it be better to install MS before I build and get it so that it runs good or
a)wait until I have broke motor in and then install it
b)try and install it with the built engine and hope every thing works like it is supposed to

Headwork?

I am unsure about this, it sounds like for what I would like I should get

Camshafts(Crower stage 2 or Crane 0016 I think)
Cam gears
Valves etc
Valve job

4)I am having a bit of trouble finding information on this though. Is this something that I should do at the same time as the bottom end? Or would it be better to wait and see if the bottom end and bolt ons/tuning will get the job done good enough?

5)What all would I need to replace and what would I need done in terms of machining?

6)If I am not planning on turbo is it worth while to do head work or would it just be throwing money away? I know it helps but does it help enough to overcome the cost?

Bolt-ons

With a built bottom end and possibly built head I would then install bolt ons such as

Exhaust
Header
Underdrive Pulley
Ram Air intake
etc.

I sure hope that I will be able to do this stuff because I have always wanted a car to work on but being a student with little experience and no one that can really teach me I have had not been able to do so.

What do you guys think?

Sorry for the length, you guys have been a big help so far.

 

[murray1]

Oops almost forgot if I am able to do this stuff then while it is apart I will also do the clutch, check the transmission.

I also will need new wheels/tires and a little bit of body work but I can figure that stuff out.

Edit: I know the post above this is really long, thank you for everyone willing to look through it.

 

[Locke]

Long time no see. I'm glad you are keeping the DSM.

1)Does this seem like a reasonable/realistic build for what I would like to achieve?

Seems well enough to me, assuming you do the cams, mentioned below.

2)Is CIMotorsports a good company? They have the best site and really the only one that you can build what you want. I am sure there are other good places but I am having trouble finding them.

Hmm.. You will find posts here, and threads on 2gnt about CImotorsports. Every once and a while have a problem shipping things on time, but they are a good company.

3)If I build my bottom end would it be better to install MS before I build and get it so that it runs good or
a)wait until I have broke motor in and then install it
b)try and install it with the built engine and hope every thing works like it is supposed to

Completely up to you. Though IMO, I would install it either before you install the new engine. This way, you will have an opportunity to familiarize yourself with basic MS tuning, and can test your tuning abilities on an engine you will be rebuilding anyways. No reason to risk an expensive new rebuild to novice tuning.

4)I am having a bit of trouble finding information on this though. Is this something that I should do at the same time as the bottom end? Or would it be better to wait and see if the bottom end and bolt ons/tuning will get the job done good enough?

I would do it at the same time, to save some money and time. Airflow is where you will gain your power.

Consider upgrading your valve springs, to go with those new camshafts, for peace of mind. I believe Mark was running Crower 2's on the factory springs with no issue, though, and while I never asked him, I think he only did that to prove a point.

5)What all would I need to replace and what would I need done in terms of machining?

Likely just surfacing the head, for machine work. You listed about everything involved in a basic head build.

6)If I am not planning on turbo is it worth while to do head work or would it just be throwing money away? I know it helps but does it help enough to overcome the cost?

Porting and blending can be quite expensive, and may not be a justifiable expense in your case. The 420a head flows amazing well as is. If you do opt for headwork, I wouldn't go further than the most basic port job. (cleaning the casting up and cutting the valve guide.)