IS NB simulation necessary?

[GSLENK]

Im running LC-1 controller. It was my understanding that NB simulation was necessary since that's what I thought the ECU understands.

Then in one of my tuning threads someone said something like "why are you NB simulating?" and I was like WTF ? (in my head of course, thats purely confusion, not disgust.)

So Is it really necessary? If its not, please elaborate, and why would link allow that option.

For easy reference: 1gb 1992 6/4 bolt. Ecmlink v3 lite running SD using frond o2 sensor location for the wideband o2 sensor (one and only sensor).

I know this may be trivial, but thanks for clearing this up.

 

[snowborder714]

Ecmlink v3 lite running SD using frond o2 sensor location for the wideband o2 sensor (one and only sensor).

Yes, because of this reason. Since you got rid of the factory narrowband sensor, the ECU needs to see some narrowband signal, so you should use ECMlink (utilizing the wideband input) to give the ECU the signal it's looking for.

 

[gbell]

If its your only sensor, then yes, you need to simulate NB.

Some people just prefer to put keep the front 02 for NB, and then hook up the WB in rear 02. That way you have something to compare each against in case on begins to fail. This is what is what I plan to do in the future. Also keeps it further downstream in case one's worried about the heat shortening their life... (not sure whether I believe that matter too much, but that's a rumor I hear.

 

[GSLENK]

Ok thanks for the confirmation. I was doing quite a few redundant things and I was thinking maybe this was one of them. clearly its not. If my sensor craps out, then I will think about moving it downstream, but its holding up fine for now.

 

[Arthris]

Ive had my LC1 in the stock spot for a while now. Zero issues and im running E85 with it

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Ive had my LC1 in the stock spot for a while now. Zero issues and im running E85 with it

ive had my AEM WB in the front stock spot for a few months and have not had any problems with it. i do have a spare just incase however.

i have heard it is more responsive if you keep it in the front o2 location opposed to the rear o2 sensor where you get delaied feedback because your farther away from the turbine.

 

[Arthris]

It is more responsive but it can decrease sensor life due to the heat right there. *shudders at AEM eugo*

 

[Archer Fabrications]

It is more responsive but it can decrease sensor life due to the heat right there. *shudders at AEM eugo*

CAN reduce the life by only 25% not that bad for the responsiveness in comparison.

 

[turbo98eclipse]

CAN reduce the life by only 25% not that bad for the responsiveness in comparison.

Where did you come up with 25%?

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Where did you come up with 25%?

had friends that have had them in the rear o2 or farther back then stock position and it lasted about 1/4 the time longer then mine did at the stock o2 position. his failed a few months later... but this could also have been due to rich tunes on both our ends i always keep a spare new WB o2 just incase.

 

[jrohner]

Yes, because of this reason. Since you got rid of the factory narrowband sensor, the ECU needs to see some narrowband signal, so you should use ECMlink (utilizing the wideband input) to give the ECU the signal it's looking for.

If its your only sensor, then yes, you need to simulate NB.

What's wrong with full time open-loop? That's what I run and prefer. No fuel trims to ever deal with or even look at and I can set the AFR's wherever I want.

i have heard it is more responsive if you keep it in the front o2 location opposed to the rear o2 sensor where you get delaied feedback because your farther away from the turbine.

I've used the narrowband simulated output on my LC1 before, and it sucked in the rear position; the delay was just too much. They do sometimes act a little finicky in or near the o2 housing, but nothing I can't live with for the better response and accuracy.

 

[Fast-Orange]

Weld a new bung in your exhaust 18" back from the turbo and dont worry about a shortened life or slow response...

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Weld a new bung in your exhaust 18" back from the turbo and dont worry about a shortened life or slow response...

not everyone has access to a tig but if i did i would do that! there are 100s of people running NB simulation with no issues on tune at all... im running Speed density and have no issues either. so why not? even the WB manufacturers have a sugguested switch over point for simulated NB for instance AEM switch point at 2.35v

 

[MY1GDSM]

Figured I toss this out there... First off Yes you may have a faster response from the front o2 that's a given. But at what cost?

If your not running a sensor controller that has the ability to tell you or know the Sensor is having sensor timing errors(AKA ~ Overheating) I wouldn't do it.

Among other issues with the AEM gauges specifically doing this is. If you just run out an use the Switching point that is in the White papers. Your only making things worse as you probably have a 50/50 chance with those gauges of it even being the correct point or even what is a real AFR in your logs depending on a lot of factors like ground off-sets Ect. (keep in mind this is in reference to using it with V3Ecmlink but not always limited too)

ive had my AEM WB in the front stock spot for a few months and have not had any problems with it. i do have a spare just incase however.

How can you say this?

Nothing personal But you have had plenty issues with your car to say that this could not be one of them is questionable. But not something to be looked over... .

Some people just prefer to put keep the front 02 for NB, and then hook up the WB in rear 02. That way you have something to compare each against in case on begins to fail.

Here is the Big upside to not going this route... . Any sensor can be put in conditions that are going to make the signal from it not accurate with out something else to reference your going to always be relying on that one input.(and it's accurate or inaccurate reading)

While a N/b has no real value in tuning it does function well enough(new) to tell whether your W/b's reading are at least in the same ball park under some conditions... .

A lot of this will come down to personal preference as with most things and how someone goes about things with their tune... . I'm not saying these things don't work just that sometimes there are more factors to take into consideration.

I myself have ran Ecmlink with narrowband simulation(with a lc-1) and at Idle I could make both spots work granted the front o2 had a faster response.(and died in a couple months) in the End. I just locked the car in Open loop at idle and as jrohner said never had to deal with any trims or anything else interfering with my fueling and always had perfect AFR's...

Not everyone can do this though as A lot of people rely on the Trims to keep things in check that they have not addressed completely or are not like some who dial things in to the last .2%.




Here is a post of mine from a few years ago discussing how widebands will function in the front o2... . just some food for thought.

Also, (and more importantly)At least the Bosch sensor I use has a parasitic resistance in the common path between the pump-cell and the measurement cell. This resistance has a positive temperature coefficient (resistance increases with temp) and is dependent on the sensor's housing temperature. Because it is buried inside the sensor it cannot be directly measured. When measuring the sense-cell impedance or pump-cell impedance it is essentially in series with either. Both, sense-cell and pump-cell impedance, have a negative temperature coefficient. Because the heater control of the Bosch unit depends on either the sense-cell or pump-cell impedance, this parasitic resistance can disrupt the temperature control by essentially compensating the negative coeff. of either when the housing gets too hot. This means that no temperature control is possible and the resultant values would be all over the map. the LC-1 I use can detect that condition and throws a sensor timing error because the sensor timing in the circuit is one of the variables that is dependent on the sensor housing temp.

Not everyones Wideband controller is this smart and tells you there's a problem

The end result of all this is that the sensor should be installed as I've said already. Before the cat at least 18" away from the turbo and no closer then 12" from the exit of the exhaust and as Kevin said between 10:00 and 2:00 position,because condensation can form in the exhaust and damage the sensor

As, I said yes it does work fine(for some)... .

But, there are lots of things to take into consideration when doing this.

 

[steve]

What's wrong with full time open-loop? That's what I run and prefer. No fuel trims to ever deal with or even look at and I can set the AFR's wherever I want.

If you don't have a cat there's nothing wrong with it.

Closed loop is only there to keep the conditions right for the cat to burn off the pollutants.