Won't start - new head

[mikejsmith1985]

OK I know everyone thinks there situation is the unique one but I have read for a couple hours and can't figure this out. I replaced the head water pump timing components etc. I just got the car all put back together and it turns over no problem Timing looks good ( pulled the 1st spark plug and verified cylinder 1 is TDC while the cam dowel pins are up) I got it to start once and cut it off quickly just to check flud levels one last time before I let it run. Then it fought me for a min and started back up it was running rough but it ran for about 30 seconds and I turned it off. I expect it to run a little rough as the new head has 272's and I haven't made adjustments to the ecu yet. I turned the car off and checked out ECM link no DCT's listed and the car just turns over and over but no start now. I took each plug out and verified spark on all cylinders, however the last bit of info I have is that the car is starting to smell strongly of gas when I turn it over as if it isn't sparking. I don't know where to start with no CEL codes and good timing.

Thanks for any help!

 

[gofer]

Post a log of you trying to start the car a few times and make sure your mods list in your profile is up to date.

I hope your 110% sure timing is good, cam gear dowels up/cam gear timing marks lined up/crank pulley at TDC. Check spark again while its cranking (just in case you missed something) and check fuel pressure at the rail (43.5psi) by actuating the pump in link. I noticed your running a 255 fp and have no modifications to your fuel pressure regulator, maybe its flooding the motor because its being over run by the bigger pump. You might also run a BLT since you removed the IM/TB/IC piping to replace the head, leaks are a HUGE possibility.

 

[JDT]

I have had the same problem with my Talon. After I replaced my HG and timing belt it wouldn't start. It's been a month since she turned on I'm pretty sure there's a crack in the head but I'm not too sure. Anyway I hope has helped...

 

[mikejsmith1985]

Post a log of you trying to start the car a few times and make sure your mods list in your profile is up to date.

I hope your 110% sure timing is good, cam gear dowels up/cam gear timing marks lined up/crank pulley at TDC. Check spark again while its cranking (just in case you missed something) and check fuel pressure at the rail (43.5psi) by actuating the pump in link. I noticed your running a 255 fp and have no modifications to your fuel pressure regulator, maybe its flooding the motor because its being over run by the bigger pump. You might also run a BLT since you removed the IM/TB/IC piping to replace the head, leaks are a HUGE possibility.

I have an Aeromotive FPR I'll double check everything next time I work on it may be Thursday or Friday before I get back to it. I'll post up some logs then.

Anyone have suggestions on best way to check CAS and Crank Sensors?

 

[gofer]

Yea, definitely update your mods list even if the afpr is the only thing missing. At least your able to check your fuel pressure at the rail now using your afpr gauge.

CAS Testing:

1. Disconnect the sensor and measure on the engine harness side with the key in the "ON" position.
   • BLK (Pin 1) - Ground (0 ohms to ground)
   • BLU/RED (Pin 2) - 4.8v to 5.2v
   • RED (Pin 3) - 12v
2. If everything checks good with a multimeter plug the CAS connector back in and check voltages with the engine cranking.
   • BLU/RED (Pin 2) - 0.4v to 3.0v (If your reading 0v while cranking then the CAS is dead)

CPS Testing:

1. Disconnect the sensor and measure on the engine harness side with the key in the "ON" position.
   • BLK (Pin 1) - Ground (0 ohms to ground)
   • BLU/WHT (Pin 2) - 4.8v to 5.2v
   • RED (Pin 3) - 12v
2. If everything checks good with a multimeter plug the CAS connector back in and check voltages with the engine cranking.
   • BLU/WHT (Pin 2) - 0.4v to 4.0v (If your reading 0v while cranking then the CPS is dead)

To get to test the signal with the engine cranking your going to have to stab through the insulation on the wire, use really sharp multimeter leads or stab a needle into it and then touch the meter lead on the needle.

You said all (4) cylinders had spark so the CAS/CPS should be good.

 

[mikejsmith1985]

Yea, definitely update your mods list even if the afpr is the only thing missing. At least your able to check your fuel pressure at the rail now using your afpr gauge.

CAS Testing:

1. Disconnect the sensor and measure on the engine harness side with the key in the "ON" position.
   • BLK (Pin 1) - Ground (0 ohms to ground)
   • BLU/RED (Pin 2) - 4.8v to 5.2v
   • RED (Pin 3) - 12v
2. If everything checks good with a multimeter plug the CAS connector back in and check voltages with the engine cranking.
   • BLU/RED (Pin 2) - 0.4v to 3.0v (If your reading 0v while cranking then the CAS is dead)

CPS Testing:

1. Disconnect the sensor and measure on the engine harness side with the key in the "ON" position.
   • BLK (Pin 1) - Ground (0 ohms to ground)
   • BLU/WHT (Pin 2) - 4.8v to 5.2v
   • RED (Pin 3) - 12v
2. If everything checks good with a multimeter plug the CAS connector back in and check voltages with the engine cranking.
   • BLU/WHT (Pin 2) - 0.4v to 4.0v (If your reading 0v while cranking then the CPS is dead)

To get to test the signal with the engine cranking your going to have to stab through the insulation on the wire, use really sharp multimeter leads or stab a needle into it and then touch the meter lead on the needle.

You said all (4) cylinders had spark so the CAS/CPS should be good.

Thanks You guys are awesome! checked my mod list it is all up to date. I had the FPR in there under engine management should I move that to "bolt-on?"

 

[gofer]

Ah. Thats where I look for the afpr at, I guess it could be under both just as long as its in there. Sorry I missed it I guess I got lazy when I was looking through your profile.

 

[mikejsmith1985]

Ah. Thats where I look for the afpr at, I guess it could be under both just as long as its in there. Sorry I missed it I guess I got lazy when I was looking through your profile.

No Problem you are trying to help me no need to apologize!

It appears to me I may be an idiot! No longer sleep deprived I looked at the timing marks, see the image below. The dowel pins are not perfectly straight up the exhaust cam could rotate clockwise maybe 1/8 - 1/4 inch. My brother (previous owner) says it looks fine to him I think I'm off by a tooth what do the experts say?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[gofer]

Your off a tooth, every (6) rotations your motor should be at TDC and those two cam gear timing marks should point right at each other. Whats the crank pulley look like when the cam gears are like that? Hopefully you didn't bend any valves but typically a motor thats only off one tooth will still start and a car with bent valves won't start at all. Before you redo the timing and get everything lined up do a compression test, that way you aren't wasting your time getting everything in time just to find out it still won't start.

This is what it should look like when everythings lined up correctly.

 

[mikejsmith1985]

Thanks! clearly this thread could have been avoided then, there are countless threads on timing thanks for all of your help gofer. Tomorrow I'll run a compression test and re-time and see how it goes. Nothing ever sounded like a valve was bent just sounded like it was starving for fuel when it was running.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Well good idea let us know, looks like a valve problem, ive been there before.

 

[mikejsmith1985]

Well good idea let us know, looks like a valve problem, ive been there before.

I sure hope not that is a completly new head 0 miles if so there may be tears in my future

 

[mikejsmith1985]

good news! I redid the timing belt and she fired right up! It's running great now excep for when I installed all the belts I found that while the car was sitting the Alternator locked up. Pulling that off now to replace it, Then I'm going to bleed the brakes ( took the calipers off and painted them among many other things during the build) then once it runs a while in the garage I'm out for a test drive. Thanks everyone for all of your help!!

 

[gofer]

Don't listen to your brother next time.