DVDT Fab FLP Intake Manifold

[pboglio]

Its worth whatever their amount of R&D time went into it, thats including non-recurring engineering costs (i.e. computer modeling, drafting, simulation, etc), labor to build the many prototypes it takes, material costs for each piece, labor for building each production unit, machine time, any outside vendor costs, on vehicle testing, you name it.

The average DSMer is a cheap ass and I can see why vendors are shifting towards the EVO camp. If more people bought the DVDT manifold, the price would come down as the law of economics would kick in.

 

[jjgrizz73]

Its worth whatever their amount of R&D time went into it, thats including non-recurring engineering costs (i.e. computer modeling, drafting, simulation, etc), labor to build the many prototypes it takes, material costs for each piece, labor for building each production unit, machine time, any outside vendor costs, on vehicle testing, you name it.

The average DSMer is a cheap ass and I can see why vendors are shifting towards the EVO camp. If more people bought the DVDT manifold, the price would come down as the law of economics would kick in.

True and True! Thing is with this is, they have not given any comparisons or numbers out for the people to have a reason to buy them. Im sorry but in this economy, show me a DSMer that can buy this knowing nothing about it and I'll show you a guy who probably should be driving something better . In all seriousness though, with all the time/effort/designing, etc put into this maybe they should have put time and effort into benchflowing and dynoing/comparing to give people a reason to spend insane amounts of money on it...

 

[pboglio]

^^^You are assuming all company's work the same way, sadly that doesn't happen. I hardly doubt the manifold doesn't work, come on. They are probably in a catch 22, not wanting to drop the price to recoup their investment, but not being able to sell the product because of the high price. Probably a bunch of engineers running the company and not marketing guys.

Maybe they should post some comparison info. I've found that can be a double edged sword for a company. No doubt whatsoever the price needs to drop to compete, if they don't care to compete then it is where they want it to be I guess.

 

[jjgrizz73]

I have no doubt it works, and the quality has atleast gotten you through a year without a problems which is a plus for sure. Still numbers/results are the rise and downfall of products so I'd love to see where this ranges in that respect. I agree 100% with everything you stated

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

There is data on every other manifold out there, why not this one?

 

[pboglio]

Because they hate smart asses who ask for data, who the hell knows.

 

[dsm-onster]

^^^You are assuming all company's work the same way, sadly that doesn't happen. I hardly doubt the manifold doesn't work, come on. They are probably in a catch 22, not wanting to drop the price to recoup their investment, but not being able to sell the product because of the high price. Probably a bunch of engineers running the company and not marketing guys.

Maybe they should post some comparison info. I've found that can be a double edged sword for a company. No doubt whatsoever the price needs to drop to compete, if they don't care to compete then it is where they want it to be I guess.

Pboglio. I 100% agree here that they arn't interested in investing the money for dyno time to an independent shop. One thing though, dyno time costs say $175 an hour at a good shop. The other manifolds they could have compared instead of the one that was could have costed the same, say $450. For a one time investment of $650, you could have an excellent marketing tool for as long as you sell the manifold. Like you said. Doesn't sound like they're thinking business here. Divide that by the guyes who've responded in this thread as sales, IF WE KNEW it would work better than a jmf drag manifold, beyond redline manifold, or Magnus cast manifold.

Yet, that could be a good thing. Business doesn't always jive with perfecting a product. . . We just don't know if it's a good thing.

Even an engineer can play monopoly . This is common sense stuff.

They arn't marketing this to the evo4+ crowd. All these manifolds are facing the wrong way. So what's with the Boardwalk price when Pennsylvania avenue get's more dice rolls?

 

[Boosted98gsx]

I will be putting the solidworks file of this manifold on a CFD (fluent) program this week.

To my knowledge, however, no other shop has invested into a CFD program for their SMIM's for DSM's (I know magnus has for their cast manifold). I will probably need to mock up a JMFAB / Magnus solidworks model for a comparison (unless someone wants to do it for me).

 

[pboglio]

AMS has done extensive CFD on their new EVO cast manifold.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

AMS has done extensive CFD on their new EVO cast manifold.

Super awesome? What about the dsm stuff?

 

[pboglio]

No idea about the DSM manifold, you can be the first I'm almost sure they used CosmosM via Solidworks which ain't a bad CFD software, I like it.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Anyways, if someone wants to build me a solidworks cgs model for the JMFAB or Magnus, or whatever, I can probably convince my university's automotive engineering Dr to let me run it for comparison.

 

[Slippi84]

Anyways, if someone wants to build me a solidworks cgs model for the JMFAB or Magnus, or whatever, I can probably convince my university's automotive engineering Dr to let me run it for comparison.

Why doesn't DV/DT fab do it? I feel like I never hear or see him pushing stuff.....just you. Does he pay you to advertise his stuff? Are you a sponsored DV/DT fab driver? I mean you push his stuff HARD. He needs to be giving you this stuff at cost just about because other than like Brent for JMF NO ONE supports a company as hard as you do. By the way for the people that don't know Brent works for JMF

 

[dsm-onster]

Someone there just doesn't care. And that's fine. I don't think the rest of us, save Andy, do either.

Andy, just buy the competition and compare. . .

 

[Slippi84]

Someone there just doesn't care. And that's fine. I don't think the rest of us, save Andy, do either.

Andy, just buy the competition and compare. . .

+1

 

[turbo addict]

+1

your doing a huge build fininsh your car and test jakes agains alberts. I have a jmf drag to test too. I would do it but school put me in a holding pattern for a while.

 

[Slippi84]

I would be more than willing to test Manifolds but two problems. One I'm sure as hell not paying 1200 for a smim and two my manifold was designed for spool and flow not just all out flow. I can tell you now this manifold will outflow mine hell the plenum besides the shape is atleast twice as big. I guarentee I outspool this manifold by 3-400rpms though all things even. This should be compared to a JMF drag. I know someone around him has one. Legs just find someone and put this debate to rest.

 

[Flash]

Why doesn't DV/DT fab do it? I feel like I never hear or see him pushing stuff.....just you. Does he pay you to advertise his stuff? Are you a sponsored DV/DT fab driver? I mean you push his stuff HARD. He needs to be giving you this stuff at cost just about because other than like Brent for JMF NO ONE supports a company as hard as you do. By the way for the people that don't know Brent works for JMF

I love DVDT Fab products. I guess when someone makes a product that good, people naturally speak highly of it.

Someone there just doesn't care. And that's fine. I don't think the rest of us, save Andy, do either.

Andy, just buy the competition and compare. . .

It's not that Albert doesn't care, it's in his best interest to stay out of forum-talk. We all know how it can go down hill fast. He wouldn't accomplish anything with the people that already don't have the money to spend on his manifold. I don't have $1200 to spend on a manifold like his, but you don't hear me complaining about price and calling his product into question.

 

[dsm-onster]

I love DVDT Fab products. I guess when someone makes a product that good, people naturally speak highly of it.



It's not that Albert doesn't care, it's in his best interest to stay out of forum-talk. We all know how it can go down hill fast. He wouldn't accomplish anything with the people that already don't have the money to spend on his manifold. I don't have $1200 to spend on a manifold like his, but you don't hear me complaining about price and calling his product into question.

That just makes you a potential customer for the maifold

The product is made that good? . . . You know we really dont know that. . . Really.

No one said anything about posting in entarweb threads. They have a website and they have capital. Put a neutral dyno comparison on their website and the world is open to them, if their manifold is worth the difference. The get what you pay for cliche gets old and really doesn't apply many times. IF you have proof, then we can apply it to this situation. Otherwise, money is money.

This isn't forum talk. I had a personal conversation about this the other day. Word of mouth is word of mouth. And the competition sells with or without internet forums.

 

[Flash]

I just checked the website I was on and I think this is a forum we are talking on.

I think it would be a waste of Albert's time if he spent time doing dyno testing of some sort to prove to some people on a forum that don't have the money (including myself) to spend on his manifold that it is good. I think the target audience that buys this manifold will already appreciate DVDT products and wouldn't question them. I think Shearer would be another person I wouldn't question.

 

[dsm-onster]

That's idiotic. . . O K I said it. . ." Waste of alberts time" . . . ? Einstein, right? Not just any Albert here right?

Good job insuring this a forum we're talking about his products on. wouldn't want to spoil the epic tesla-like glory of the products he offers. Were only talking about the flow into the heads we spend so much time around.

 

[woooop]

I had a dvdt manifold and it was junk. I dont care if you have the money or are building a 8 second car the manifolds he makes sucks point blank. It wouldent even hold 8psi, and no he whould not answer my emails so yes i did contact him. 700 doller pos!

 

[jjgrizz73]

^^ this guy wont stop

 

[tkelly27]

To not question or test is to waste ones money foolishly. As much engineering fundamentals that has been put into this, 98GSX and Albert should know that computer and textbook models can only take you so far. Just because someone has an engineering degree (or a phd) doesn't mean you should accept everything they say or make at face value, me included. : D

FSAE was mentioned earlier in this thread. Our FSAE engine with a cobbled together intake made more torque and equal or more HP than many with others designed with industry professionals, CAD, CFD, and SLS. I've also seen our school make a composite manifold with a really elaborate design that made 20 less hp than the one we put together at the last minute. In the CFD our design probably would get clobbered, but a big part of CFD is how one inputs the parameters. This gets really complex with compressible, variable flow, especially trying to model cam timing. There is a restrictor in FSAE, but I've seen that modeled in CFD as well. The dyno doesn't lie, even the flow bench can mislead you when you're talking about pulsed, compressible flow.

I'm not fond of the autorun CFD or FEA software like the SW packages, but they can give good results if you know how to use them. Will be interesting to see them compared to a manifold and the CFD results I've seen from bell mouth shapes. I'll try to dig that up.

It would be nice to see something more difinitive than the intercooler test. The intercooler test was interesting, but the mass flow was so small, .01kg/s = 1.32lb/min. This isn't an intercooler for a lawn mower. A better test would be a log of pressure/temp drop across the core compared to a similar sized ETS or other popular core. Hell even the ebay core. I digress.

It is (and should be!) a hard sell to convince someone an intake manifold is worth more to them than a TIG machine, or a whole 'nother car. Showing that this is worth the extra $500-700 over another SMIM would be less difficult, but it's still important part of selling a product.

Of the two people that have used them, one person swings the nuts, the other's blew up at 8psi. Need some more testing for sure.

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

I just checked the website I was on and I think this is a forum we are talking on.

I think it would be a waste of Albert's time if he spent time doing dyno testing of some sort to prove to some people on a forum that don't have the money (including myself) to spend on his manifold that it is good. I think the target audience that buys this manifold will already appreciate DVDT products and wouldn't question them. I think Shearer would be another person I wouldn't question.

Wow. So your parts buying philosophy is "buy the shiny one that looks good"? I bet the guys at autozone LOVE you.

It's about proving your part works better than others. One dyno test would put it all to rest. The only other reason I can think of is that a test did happen and the results were so awful that they disappeared and they adopted a "no testing" policy.