Drivetrain whine, and slight grind?!

[95 'clipse RS]

ok, i have searched this for awhile now and couldnt find anything to help me with this. im basically just wondering a few things about my setup and the typical things these trannys do.

ok firstly, i have a "stage 3 clutch" from sachs (ebay mistake), which feels ok and what not, but i do plan on changing that. it is a 6 puck sprung disc, with basically a little over stock PP, and aluminum alloy fly. modular setup. also, i swapped in a 3.55 03 neon tranny to go with it. i did have it apart, due to the syncro poppet balls coming out in the process of changing the shift levers. i inspected the roller bearings and races, and they looked normal, no signs of high temps, not pitted or anything, the shift forks had hardly any wear at all. also no signs of metallic shavings or anything of that manner. all reassembled fine, except for the fact that i forgot to lube the TOB and clutch release system.

now more to the point, i am getting a very noticeable whine in 3rd and 4th, both around 2k rpm. reverse feels pretty sluggish and gritty until clutch is fully engaged, a little bit of what sounds to be differential bearing wear, but too faint to tell really, could mistake it for road noise. also, on cold starts, the tranny makes a quite loud grinding sound, neutral with clutch engaged. then when i get a block away, it is basically silent. on this i was just wondering if it was normal for the tranny to make noise on start up being that the fluid has settled, or should it still be pretty quiet?

and on the other things, i really dont know. ive never had a tranny whine before. except for an auto or somethin. im just wondering on the 3rd 4th and reverse thing if that could be clutch chatter, or something to do with something other than the tranny. even with all of this happening, it doesnt really seem like its on its way out. it pulls hard and shifts fine, it doesnt feel loose or anything. i just want to make sure that this one doesnt break on me too.

any input, or similar experiences would be greatly appreciated.

thanks everyone

 

[Locke]

Make sure the oil didn't leak out. When you pull the transmission to change the clutch, check the input shaft for axial or lateral play.

 

[95 'clipse RS]

lateral play as in from side to side basically? like from shaft end to shaft end? and im not not too sure about what axial play is, im sure i might know, but probably not by the term. so you obviously think its serious enough to pull it again? or just wait until i wanna change the clutch? oh and a question i was meanin to ask before, would the wrong fluid do it too? i have BG in it now, as i cant find syncromesh at the moment. also, the diff bearing preloads are supposed to be preset, i didnt have and dont know how to aquire the shims needed to do this, could this be an issue also?

also, what fluids am i able to run in this? i know dealer is specified, but i thought that was for the trannys with soft metals like brass in them, mine does not have brass syncros, or anything that i noticed. also, i heard these trannys are somewhat friction based, like a slippery fluid will actually be a bad thing, is this correct?

thanks alot locke, and everyone you guys are a god send


also, if i am shopping for new bearings and parts, does anyone know who and where to go for this tranny? secondly, is it possible to convert to bb style bearings on the input and output shafts?? and is there anyone who rebuilds these nvt's?? i would really like to get one built in the future. sorry for all the questions, im just trying to put everything out there.

thanks once again guys

sorry for so many also's, i tend to get carried away haha

 

[Locke]

Lateral play would be checking for wobble. Axial play would be checking or end-play. (in-and-out)

You should not hear any noises from the transmission except for the straight-cut gear whine while in reverse. I would take it out and disassemble it, but it may be cheaper to get another tranny altogether. Try here for parts.

Use only NV-T350 Mopar fluid #04874465, or ATF+4. The 3rd-5th synchronizers and reverse brake are paper lined and will wear quickly with improper fluids. Synchroshift and Synchromesh fluids don't offer adequate protection.

The differential should have a 7.1 mil preload.

The shafts should be held by taper roller bearings already, and needle rollers for the gears. (IIRC)

 

[95 'clipse RS]

you are the man. im gettin that fluid out of there, and hopefully it hasnt ruined anything yet. ill most likely get another tranny and build that so i can still drive to work and what not. then switch it all out, then use the one thats in it for race build. is there anyone that builds these trannys up? ill tell ya these are a PITA. the next one i buy will be the third. and so is the master rebuild everyting but the syncro rings? and i was kinda lookin for something more beefy than stock, is there anyplace for that? if not, its cool, youve been most helpful locke. next time i tear into one, im doin a write up on it also for anyone who has the same problem and needs a walk through.

thanks alot man

 

[Locke]

is there anyone that builds these trannys up?

Not to my knowledge, though when in good repair, they have been known to handle power well over their rating - except the differentials. Use safing brackets or weld to prevent the pin from sliding out, or replace it with a Quaife or corrected OBX.

and so is the master rebuild everyting but the syncro rings?

Yeap. All servicable seals and bearings.

and i was kinda lookin for something more beefy than stock, is there anyplace for that?

Not that I know of. Although, All NV-T350 HD transmissions (February 2000+) have much higher ratings. See the tranny reference on Neons.org.
edit: See http://www.neons.org/forumdodge/trans.htm

next time i tear into one, im doin a write up on it also for anyone who has the same problem and needs a walk through.

Please do. Transmission work is nearly impossible to describe without visual aid.

Good luck.

 

[link16]

Dogbox racing has done rebuilds in the past, but when I talked to him, he seemed reluctant to take it in.

 

[Locke]

Dogbox racing has done rebuilds in the past, but when I talked to him, he seemed reluctant to take it in.

Any transmission shop can work on them, as there isn't anything extraordinary about them. I think the OP was asking about a "performance" type build, with stronger parts, of which there are no stronger parts available aside from the differential.

 

[link16]

Any transmission shop can work on them, as there isn't anything extraordinary about them. I think the OP was asking about a "performance" type build, with stronger parts, of which there are no stronger parts available aside from the differential.

Yup! When he told me how much he charged his previous 420A owner for a dogbox transmission it was well over $8000; I kindly said thank you and hung up.

 

[95 'clipse RS]

8000?! woah, that is way above my budget haha. thats rediculous. so, my torque rating would be of 165 Ft/lbs? and it would actually be able to take more over the limit? in a ballpark figure, could you tell me how much this tranny could take? i want to go turbo here soon, and i dont want that to push it too hard and break it again.

so are the pt cruiser trannys compatable or are the in internal parts in the tranny that you know of? like input, output, bearings, or whatever? i feel stupid for asking such a question, but where my thought is leading me is their torque ratings are probably even higher right? considering some are turbo'ed. then if it would work use parts from there to put in my tranny to beef it up some... sound logical?

and lastly, you said, replace with quife, or a corrected OBX. what is a Corrected OBX? i know youre talkin about LSD's right? Just wondering if youre talkin about a mod you can do the the OBX one, because that one seems to be in my price range, but yet ive heard bad things about them.

thanks everyone, i dont know what id do with you all

 

[Locke]

Yeah, your '03 tranny would be rated for 165ftlbs. Many, many guys push quite a bit of power through their factory trannies (rated to 135ftlbs) without issue. They hold the power we throw at them quite well. Other than protecting or replacing your differential, there is not much more you can do to the transmission to keep it together.

I don't believe the PTC's transmission will fit, something is different. I don't recall the exact issue.

After purchasing an OBX LSD, it is recommended to "fix" it before use, (Like many thing's OBX) to prevent it from exploding. Off the top of my head, this involves replacing the belleview washers, chamfering the edges inside the diff (to maintain axle circlips) and re-torquing the bolts.

There are rumours around about another company making an inexpensive Quaife-styled differential as well, with a warranty of some sort to back it up. I don't remember who. I think Link knows, though.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

It was AMC... although I've never actually met anyone with that LSD.

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Some info for discussion purpose

(Depending on the year of the trans made)

ALL gears are paper lined synchro stop rings

Some had a brass 1st and second stop ring.

A master rebuild kit comes with all seals, outer shaft bearings, diff bearings, input seal/bearing, 1-5th synchro stop rings, and reverse stop ring.

Depending on who you talk to and thier backround, synchro has a different meaning. Per the dealer manuals, the synchros are actually the outer slide ring and inner stationary gear as well as the ball detents.

The stop rings as I refer to them are what are what we refer to as the synchro's. They are the rings that have the friction material used to slow down the mating gear. Old 4 speed tranny's refer to them as stop rings, I forget what the dealer calls them.

For discussion purposes, if your trans is popping out of gear, you need a new gear and the slider assy (Dealer called Synchro) from the dealer. 3-4th is 240.00 and 5th is 270.00

Actual stop rings from the dealer are 40.00 each and you can only buy 3-5th/reverse

Aftermarket stop rings are always brass, you must use a different fluid than the dealer fluid when using brass. If you use the dealer fluid then high speed shifts will grind.

Neon tranny's do not use a stop ring for the reverse gear. All the stop ring does is slow the input shaft down to mate with reverse gear.

Reverse gear is a straight cut gear and will whine normally, the rest of your gears should not.

Axial play in the input and output shaft is controlled by the bearing plate on the backside of the trans.

Thrust play in the differential is controlled by shims located behind the bearing races in the left and right cases.


Why is yours whining? Could be any number of things. If you have enough fluid then i would say it could be your assembly. You may not have it together properly. If you disassembled the output shaft then it could be the way you pressed the 3-4-5 gears on. Outer shaft bearings coudl be the issue as well, if you dont have them on properly or on all the way then that is a possability.

Just a little info for the curiouse mostly. I have so many rebuilds under my belt that its like second nature.

 

[95 'clipse RS]

i have no clue what it is, sometimes im even thinking clutch. sometimes it does it on engagement and im not even moving or anything, the only thing there that would be moving is the tob, pp, and flywheel. i get the noise at what sounds to be a lower pitch, sometimes, when idleing on cold start up, and when i disengage the clutch it goes away. this points toward the tob i know, but what im wondering is why this noise is coming, 2nd 3rd 4th noticeably around 2k rpm. can the tob actually do that, like only make noise at certain rpms and times?

anywho, i didnt really have the tranny apart too much, all i did was take out the shafts to get to the syncro assembly on the input shaft thats all the way back in there and put the poppet balls and syncro ring back on. then just reassembled it.

also, i am a bit curious about the reverse brake thats on the end of the input shaft, the end away from the bellhousing. what is its function? i just never actually knew for sure. thanks guys

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Reread my post regarding your question about the reverse brake.

 

[95 'clipse RS]

Neon tranny's do not use a stop ring for the reverse gear. All the stop ring does is slow the input shaft down to mate with reverse gear.

is this it? and im pretty sure my tranny does have this assembly, it may not have the stop ring itself i cant remember too well, but it wouldnt make any sense to put the assembly in but not the ring. but i pretty much figured thats what it did, i just wasnt sure because you just said stop ring. but yeah i took a book on it from work, so i could figure out how it came apart and what not. im pretty sure it went back together right though. but yeah thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Talon ESI-T]

The stop ring and the cone is all thats left out. The rest of the synchro assy (ie the slider and inner gear ect) is part of your 5th gear. Instead they leave out the stop ring and install a plastic spacer and a retaining band that clips into the inner gear that sits stationary on the shaft.