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Turbo System Tech: 4G63 turbos, Intercooling, Boost Control, Wastegates, etc.

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Old 06-02-2011, 08:45 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
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Slow Spool and bad boost recovery


First off, I have read every thread that has anything to do with slow spool/boost recovery. I think in one of the threads the guy had the same issue as me but he gave up after about 4 pages and I think he just sold the car.

I have an FP3082HTA and I don't hit full boost till around 4,700 RPM when I should be hitting full boost in the 3,700 RPM range. As much as I hate the late spool I hate the boost recovery even more. When I'm doing a pull I will hit full boost (I have it set to like 21psi right now but normally around 30) and when I shift the boost gauge drops into vacuum real quick then when I hit the gas it will jump up to 10 psi then it will take a 1 1/2 sec to get back up into boost. I have been having this problem for a long time.

My mod list is current, however I do have ECMlink V3 but I wont be hooking it up at all until tomorrow.

List of things that have been done and that I know about the issue:
There are NO BOOST LEAKS.
Compression is good @ 145, 145, 145, 150
Leak down test was good.
I have taken apart the tail 44v wast gate. The valve seat was there and there was no rips in the diaphram.
We installed a MBC in place of the EBC and it did nothing.
We have ran WG pressure and the problem is still there.
We have verified base timing numerous times and even pulled plug one to verify it with true TDC.
We removed the adj cam gears and replaced them with stock gears because the marks on the adj ones were a little weird.
We completely removed the exhaust and did a pull like that and it didn't help the problem.
We blocked off the HKS SSBOV and it didn't fix the problem.
We checked PSI from the lower intercooler pipe against PSI from the JMF SMIM and it only showed a 2 psi drop during spool up and no difference when in full boost.


I think that is it but we may have tried more. Any help would be appreciated. I am at the end of the line with this car and this problem. I'm going to try everything in my power to figure this out until July first, after that im tearing it apart and crushing the cursed shell.


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Old 06-02-2011, 09:18 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
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Sounds like a pre-turbo exhaust leak. Check to make sure your exhaust manifold gasket is good, and your manifold to turbo gasket is good. I'm having the same problem with my 16g and i doesn't hit full boost til about 4100 rpm. So I started up the car and ran my hand around the mating surface of the manifold and turbo, and sure enough I could feel a huge leak in the back. Hope this helps.

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Old 06-02-2011, 10:27 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
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I will give it a try first thing in the morning (if my car wasn't so loud I would go outside right now and try it). I have suggested that to my mechanic once but he said that we would be able to hear a leak if it was bad enough to cause this issue.

Thanks for the help. Keep the ideas coming

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Old 06-02-2011, 11:15 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
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Just a question here. Why do you say that you should be spooling 1k rpms earlier? From previous experience where you were spooling there?

From your mod list, a lot of them slow down spool. From the "large" FMIC with the 3" UICP to the mustang TB that leads into your JMF manifold that is bolted to your ported head with larger cams. Not to mention you are running a GT30 turbine wheel on a 2.0L engine.

With that aside though....first educated guess goes to pre turbo exhaust leak. Which means you'll have to check quite a few mating surfaces. (Head-manifold, manifold-turbine inlet, where the 44mm WG connects to the turbine and also the wastegate itself). And since the Tial is a modulated exhaust leak, that is where I'd check first. Possibly even swapping it out with another one to see if it makes a difference. And even though you've taken it apart, it still could be the culprit. They all leak anyway, Yours might have just gotten worse.

Next, I'd say look into the adjustable cam gears. If they were not setup correctly the first time, you could have some bad cam timing.


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Old 06-03-2011, 05:13 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simple jake View Post
Sounds like a pre-turbo exhaust leak. Check to make sure your exhaust manifold gasket is good, and your manifold to turbo gasket is good. I'm having the same problem with my 16g and i doesn't hit full boost til about 4100 rpm. So I started up the car and ran my hand around the mating surface of the manifold and turbo, and sure enough I could feel a huge leak in the back. Hope this helps.
You must have nerve damage or rhino skin! My 16g spools late too and I just replaced my mani/turbo gasket with no improvement. I will be watching this thread closely for more ideas.

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Old 06-03-2011, 07:16 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostFrenzy View Post
Just a question here. Why do you say that you should be spooling 1k rpms earlier? From previous experience where you were spooling there? No my car has never spooled that fast. There is another guy locally that has the same set up (besides the 75mm throttle body) and he spools that fast. I know not all cars are the same but even if this is where I will spool from now on I shouldn't have to wait forever for boost recovery

From your mod list, a lot of them slow down spool. From the "large" FMIC with the 3" UICP to the mustang TB that leads into your JMF manifold that is bolted to your ported head with larger cams. Not to mention you are running a GT30 turbine wheel on a 2.0L engine. Yes I am aware that all of these things (plus the FP race manifold) hurt spool up time but it shouldn't set it back a full 1,000rpms should it? If so should I change the title to just bad boost recovery? We are taking off the TB, SMIM and 3" uicp next week if the problem is still there. Oh and we will be putting stock cams back in.

With that aside though....first educated guess goes to pre turbo exhaust leak. Which means you'll have to check quite a few mating surfaces. (Head-manifold, manifold-turbine inlet, where the 44mm WG connects to the turbine and also the wastegate itself). And since the Tial is a modulated exhaust leak, that is where I'd check first. Possibly even swapping it out with another one to see if it makes a difference. And even though you've taken it apart, it still could be the culprit. They all leak anyway, Yours might have just gotten worse. I borrowed an extra Tial 44v from my mechanic to rule it out but after I took mine apart and all looked well I decided not to swap them...I guess I will swap them tomorrow.

Next, I'd say look into the adjustable cam gears. If they were not setup correctly the first time, you could have some bad cam timing.this should be taken care of when we swap in the stock cams
It seemed easier to answer your questions this way. The responses are in red above.

Edit: We took the cheepo adj cam gears off because the marks on both sides of the gears were on the peaks (instead of one in the valley one in the peak). When he redid the timing he matched up the marks on the cams together and it lined up with TDC... are you saying that the cams can still be off? If so how and what do we need to do to fix it?

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Old 06-03-2011, 10:48 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
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No, if you took the adjustable ones off then they shouldn't be an issue with cams at all now. The FP2's are actually pretty close to dialed in right out of the box from what I remember.

By chance, do you know the PSI rating on the spring you have in the wastegate? (What PSI was being run while on wastegate pressure only?). I had a similar issue with re-spooling my GT30 because the spring in the wastegate was too soft. I had bought the gate second hand and it turned out to have only a 8lb spring in it which was getting pushed open while trying to achieve my 20PSI setting.


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Old 06-04-2011, 12:31 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostFrenzy View Post
No, if you took the adjustable ones off then they shouldn't be an issue with cams at all now. The FP2's are actually pretty close to dialed in right out of the box from what I remember.

By chance, do you know the PSI rating on the spring you have in the wastegate?Right now 14psi but normally I have to springs in equaling 19psi...Ive ran WG pressure on both. (What PSI was being run while on wastegate pressure only?). I had a similar issue with re-spooling my GT30 because the spring in the wastegate was too soft. I had bought the gate second hand and it turned out to have only a 8lb spring in it which was getting pushed open while trying to achieve my 20PSI setting.
Well tonight I dialed in ECMLink V3 and when I was only running WG pressure I was in the 14 - 15psi range. I turned my Greddy profec B II up to 41% which has me running at 22psi.

I will post a log tomorrow. My car takes 2.4 sec to get from 80 to 100 MPH

Ok Maybe this log will shine some light on my problems. In the 5,500ish RPM range there is a spike in maf raw, boostest and AirFlowPerRev....I'm not sure what its from but my guess is the EBC not being set up 100% correct (like the gain and start boost %'s). Because this didn't happen when using just WG pressure.

Also why does it take my car so long to gain MPH when it show's that its making power just fine?

Here is a link with a shift between 2nd gear and 3rd while WOT. 2011.06.3.10


***NONE OF THESE PULLS HAD THE METH INJECTION ON***
Attached Files
File Type: elg postme. last log.elg (31.5 KB, 25 views)
File Type: elg log.2011.06.03-10.elg (100.4 KB, 16 views)

Last edited by 19BLACKGST98; 06-04-2011 at 01:43 AM. Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping" within a 24 hour period Tips on avoiding the auto-merge feature - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_bumping

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Old 06-04-2011, 01:41 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
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Im not on a computer or I'd look at the logs...

Just guessing but I'd say part of your problem is the weak Wg spring... I had a similar problem years ago running a small spring swapped it out for the strongest spring I could get my hands on an never looked back...
That's why I asked what spring you had in the other thread.


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Old 06-04-2011, 01:55 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
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The thing with the wg spring is that I have had 2 springs in the wg that equaled 19psi and I still had this problem.

Also I would like to add that I plugged up the tail pipe today with the car idleing and couldnt find any pre turbo exhaust leaks.

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Old 06-04-2011, 01:29 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
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Your Not shifting WOT An Not With Nlts you can clearly see where your off the throttle an the Idle switch is triggered an your off the throttle for almost a full second... in the second log during that same 2-3 shift your also pig rich.

I would be curious to see how the spool would be In a log with A map sensor logging an Nlts on an Really shifting WOT...


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Old 06-04-2011, 03:10 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MY1GDSM View Post
Your Not shifting WOT An Not With Nlts you can clearly see where your off the throttle an the Idle switch is triggered an your off the throttle for almost a full second... in the second log during that same 2-3 shift your also pig rich.

I would be curious to see how the spool would be In a log with A map sensor logging an Nlts on an Really shifting WOT...
I cant use nlts with link yet because I havnt been able to find my soldering pen to instal the clutch cut wire.

I have my foot to the floor then im letting it off to shift then putting it to the floor. Do you have any idea why it takes so long to get from 80 to 100?

The 2nd log was earlier in the day so we were still tuning. All of this was done after 2pm yesterday...link was never on the car before this and these were the first to logs ive ever posted. The post me log was the last log we did and it was after midnight.

I guess I misunder stood the term wot shifting.

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Old 06-04-2011, 04:40 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
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I think your compresion is too low ;/

It should be 178 psi across the board.
Thats why your spoll is lil late.
Just my opinion


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Old 06-04-2011, 05:18 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
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your using a cast manifold with very short runners compared to tubular style manifolds for one (this is not a problem but...) your also running up to 30 psi which is going to take quite a bit of exhaust pressure for the cold side to reach 20-30 psi. your wast gate is probably cracking open on the way to reaching your desired boost pressure. think about how much space there is for the exhaust pulses from head to turbine! theres alot of pressure building up very fast and those pulses want to take the very least path of resistance, thus cracking the waste gate open early slowing down the turbine wheel making your turbo spool up slower. This is the problem with the modern day waste-gate but no one seems to believe me....
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:14 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsu-luver View Post
your using a cast manifold with very short runners compared to tubular style manifolds for one (this is not a problem but...) your also running up to 30 psi which is going to take quite a bit of exhaust pressure for the cold side to reach 20-30 psi. your wast gate is probably cracking open on the way to reaching your desired boost pressure. think about how much space there is for the exhaust pulses from head to turbine! theres alot of pressure building up very fast and those pulses want to take the very least path of resistance, thus cracking the waste gate open early slowing down the turbine wheel making your turbo spool up slower. This is the problem with the modern day waste-gate but no one seems to believe me....
Ill swap it out with a diffrent one just to be sure. I was going to do that today but family was in town.

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Old 06-05-2011, 10:24 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
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Ill swap it out with a diffrent one just to be sure. I was going to do that today but family was in town.
what the manifold? probably could try that see what happens. I wanna know the out come so reply back when you get it done.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:07 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsu-luver View Post
what the manifold? probably could try that see what happens. I wanna know the out come so reply back when you get it done.
No I ment the wastegate. I may still have the stock manifold but the tubular I had cracked in a month.

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Old 06-05-2011, 03:00 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
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What MBC did you try using? Did it have the tiny tiny vent hole on the line going to the wastegate?

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Old 06-05-2011, 04:46 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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What MBC did you try using? Did it have the tiny tiny vent hole on the line going to the wastegate?
It was a hallman with the knob that leads into the car. Ive never owned a mbc so thats all I know.

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Old 06-12-2011, 07:42 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
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Do you know how much oil pressure your turbo is seeing?


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