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FP HTA68, FP2 Cams, & E85

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gofer

Moderator
8,152
1,441
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
This isn't a question thread, this is a results thread I just want everyone to understand that before they continue reading...

About mid February I decided that it was time to change the setup because the stock 7 bolt and E3 16g weren't doing it. I put in a set of FP2 grinds hoping it would give me some top end power because my car would fall on its face after 6k. After the install the only way I could get rid of knock was to richen up my AFR's to a 10.3~10.5:1 and pull timing to 6* to 7* from 4k to redline... 91 octane sucks. *see log evoIII 16g fp2 91oct no knock *

After getting frustrated at the 91oct and my cams I did some research and found an E85 station on my way to work. WOOHOO! I ordered some FIC 950cc injectors and while I was at it called Forced Performance and ordered their HTA68.

First I installed the 950's and tuned the E3 16g on E85 with the cams. I got A LOT of timing back and was able to lean out my AFR's to 11.6~11.8:1. *see log 2010.3.19-05*

Yesterday I installed the HTA68 and did a 3rd gear pull... I'm impressed.
*see log first HTA68 3rd gear pull*

I definitely see WAY more potential in the HTA68 than this log shows but I was simply doing it to compare to my tune on the Evo3 16g. Right now I'm turning the boost up to 25psi and tuning for an 11.5:1 AFR, we'll see how much timing advance I can get before I start seeing knock... :D

:dsm:

EDIT
Realized that some other dsm'rs that don't have dsmlink might want to see the improved numbers between the logs so I went through them and added the go fast stats... ENJOY.

If you don't have dsmlink the results look like this...

First log: 91 octane with a E3 16g and FP2 cams...
AFR's - 10.5:1 Timing - 7* Max Airflow - 35.1 lbs/min. @ 7k Boost - 21psi HP est - 270 hp TQ est - 280 ft/lbs

Second log: E85 with a E3 16g and FP2 cams...
AFR's - 11.5:1 Timing - 13* Max Airflow - 35.2 lbs/min. @ 7k Boost - 21psi HP est - 324hp TQ est - 311 ft/lbs.

Third log: E85, HTA68, and FP2 cams...
AFR's - 11.8:1 Timing - 13* Max Airflow - 41 lbs min @ 7k Boost - 21psi HP est - 372 hp TQ est - 321 ft lbs

If you do have dsmlink you can view the logs in the attached files below, they are in the same order as the posted results.

FINAL RESULTS

MOD LIST:
Bolt-on Modifications:
HTA68 // FP intake // hks bov // 1g NA tb // BJ's SMIM // VRS fmic 28.5"x10"x3.5" // 2.5" short route IC piping // FIC 950's // walbro 255 fp (STM rewire) // proclassic -6AN from tank to rail // fuelab fuel filter (metal) // 1g fuel rail // fuelab afpr (55psi) // 2g exhaust manifold (ported) // PR externally gated o2 housing dumped // tial 38mm wastegate with a .9 bar spring // apexi gt 3" cat delete dp // HKS hi power catback exhaust // hallman mbc // nology hotwires // prothane motor mounts // mishimoto radiator // (1) SPAL 12" push fan // optima red top // RRE oil catch can // '99 black leather interior // cf headliner // cf turbo spoiler // AC, CC, & emissions removed // 2gb Talon front // 2ga Talon sides // 2gb Eclipse rear //

Engine Management:
ecmlink (V3) Speed Density // AEM UEGO wideband (rear o2 location) // AEM 3.5 bar MAP sensor // GM IAT // autometer boost gauge // HKS type 1 tt //

Engine Internals:
E-85 // fp2 cams // Evo IX valve springs & retainers // engnbldr SS valves // engnbldr bronze valve guides // topline revised lifters // ARP head studs (tq to 90ft lbs) // mitsu composite headgasket (copper sprayed) // stock 7-bolt bottom end with 99k //

Drivetrain Modifications:
AWD GS-T // automatic tranny converted to 5 speed manual // ACT 2600 clutch // ACT chromoly flywheel // evo X gsr shift knob // B&M short shifter // symborski shift kit // SS full clutch line // slave cylinder extension rod //

Suspension Modifications:
GSX brake conversion // ss brake lines // eibach sportline springs (changed to prokit march '10) // tokico 5 way adjustable gas shocks // front & rear RMDSM sway bars // RRE front strut tower brace // DC sport rear strut tower brace // matte black evo IX wheels wrapped with 245/40/17 bridgestone potenza RE760's //
Theres a lot going on in this thread and my car wasn't actually able to get dyno numbers until August '10 and I started this thing in March. Feel free to read through the whole thing if you'd like but if your just here for the results I've updated this first post with the dyno chart, any other info you might want you'll have to read throughout the thread.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.


Thanks for reading!

:dsm:
 

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  • evo III 16g fp2 91oct no knock.elg
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  • log.2010.03.19-05.elg
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  • first HTA68 3rd gear pull log.2010.03.23-01.elg
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Last edited by a moderator:
Very nice. Just a suggestion though, most people when tuning E85 don't realize the benefits of it. It isn't uncommon to tune in the 12.5-12.8:1 range and then adjust timing. I have seen multiple very high hp cars doing this with no problems. Nothing wrong with where you are at but you aren't getting the "full" benefits of the fuel. At those AFR's it's a pretty safe bet you can max out the timing table on that turbo with no problems. 22*'s up top isn't uncommon.
 
Very nice. Just a suggestion though, most people when tuning E85 don't realize the benefits of it. It isn't uncommon to tune in the 12.5-12.8:1 range and then adjust timing. I have seen multiple very high hp cars doing this with no problems. Nothing wrong with where you are at but you aren't getting the "full" benefits of the fuel. At those AFR's it's a pretty safe bet you can max out the timing table on that turbo with no problems. 22*'s up top isn't uncommon.

I second this. I have ran e-85 in my cars for a couple years now, always staying below 11.5:1, because of the high boost and timing i run. After some ignition problems at high boost/rpm's, i talked to some people on a local board that run 12.8:1 on 700hp cars. I leaned out to the low 12's and my car runs much better. I was a little freaked the first time my boost gauge read 30 psi, and my wideband read 12.3:1. But, it works great. 11.5:1 with e-85 on a gas scale is close to 7:1 actual. That is very rich and can be hard to light off properly.
 
Anyone have documentation for the tuning above and why to tune it so high? I am running a 20g on e85 here shortly, next week actually, and need to figure out where i want the car to be at on e85 before and in boost.
 
I'm curious how the e85 affects the stock fuel lines and seals. Can anyone comment on that?
 
Very nice. Just a suggestion though, most people when tuning E85 don't realize the benefits of it. It isn't uncommon to tune in the 12.5-12.8:1 range and then adjust timing. I have seen multiple very high hp cars doing this with no problems. Nothing wrong with where you are at but you aren't getting the "full" benefits of the fuel. At those AFR's it's a pretty safe bet you can max out the timing table on that turbo with no problems. 22*'s up top isn't uncommon.
I'm a bit nervous turning up the boost much past 25psi since I'm running the OEM hg/head bolts for now. I'll lean it to 11.8 ~ 12.0:1 AFR's but seeing that thing at WOT above 12:1 is going to make me really nervous. :coy:

Thanks for the advice though, my timing is very conservative too so I'll be advancing it a few degrees at a time until I see her knock.

So what was the difference in boost between the 2nd e3 16g log and the FP68 log?
No difference, the MBC was untouched... 21psi is it. The big thing I noticed was that it hit HARD right at 3.8K just like the E3 16g but it didn't let off after 6k in the RPM band, things were rattling in my car at WOT I've never heard before! :D

A guy on the link forums asked me to do a 2nd/3rd gear pull with the HTA68 since thats basically what your seeing in the E3 16g log. I'm going to do one tonight and I'll post it up before I go to bed.

:dsm:
 
This could just be me being a chicken but I would only tune it to 12:1 AFR and stick around 20ish timing. You really don't want to tune till you see knock when your making that much hp on stock head bolts. From what I understand making detonation at 400ish whp where you'll probably be close too is very dangerous compared to 300ish whp. Also those 700hp cars I'm assuming have non-stock pistons which are usually stronger and more resilient towards heat of running a little more aggressive tune. I do think though, that you probably won't encounter knock with 22* of timing on top with 25 psi. It also depends on the blend you got. Being in California I think your in the middle blend right now;however, I don't have the e85 chart on me, and there isn't any guaranteeing that the pump matches what it should have.
 
It can be nerve racking but once you see there is no knock, car pulls amazing and you have maxed out your timing, you will want more. Anything above 12.8:1 and I would get a little leary. Remember that is gas AFR not E85 AFR. Those 700hp cars were also running mid 20's for timing on the topend of a HTA35R and ~12.5:1 AFR with no issue's. You would be surprised how cool E85 runs. At 12.5:1 it is still cooler than pump at say 10.5:1. Check some threads about E85 EGT temps.
 
This could just be me being a chicken but I would only tune it to 12:1 AFR and stick around 20ish timing. You really don't want to tune till you see knock when your making that much hp on stock head bolts. From what I understand making detonation at 400ish whp where you'll probably be close too is very dangerous compared to 300ish whp. Also those 700hp cars I'm assuming have non-stock pistons which are usually stronger and more resilient towards heat of running a little more aggressive tune. I do think though, that you probably won't encounter knock with 22* of timing on top with 25 psi. It also depends on the blend you got. Being in California I think your in the middle blend right now;however, I don't have the e85 chart on me, and there isn't any guaranteeing that the pump matches what it should have.
HAHA. Thats funny you mention the E85 blend... When I first did the switch I went inside the E85 station and asked the manager what percentage of ethanol was in the E85. Of course she said 85% and knowing better I said, "I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble here, I know you run different blends depending on the season and I'm trying to get my car to run right." She said, "Oh, its about 83% then..." :)

25psi, 11.8 ~ 12:1 AFR, & 20* of timing sound good to me, I'm a newb tuner so tuning to the limit probably isn't a great idea... (anyone play COD:MW2? ROFL ) RRE is having a DSM dyno day here soon (date is still TBA) so I'm going to get it close on just street pulls and hopefully my friend Sam who works at Road Race will work his magic to get the most out of the setup...

It can be nerve racking but once you see there is no knock, car pulls amazing and you have maxed out your timing, you will want more. Anything above 12.8:1 and I would get a little leary. Remember that is gas AFR not E85 AFR. Those 700hp cars were also running mid 20's for timing on the topend of a HTA35R and ~12.5:1 AFR with no issue's. You would be surprised how cool E85 runs. At 12.5:1 it is still cooler than pump at say 10.5:1. Check some threads about E85 EGT temps.
Does anyone here worry about the .4 - .7* of knock showing up in link when tuning, I've always thought (and a little birdy told me) that was just phantom knock.

I don't have an EGT gauge so I couldn't tell you how much cooler it runs but I do know the difference between 91 octane and E85 are night and day. By far the BEST mod I've done to this DSM in the last few years is converting it to E85.

:dsm:
 
It can be nerve racking but once you see there is no knock, car pulls amazing and you have maxed out your timing, you will want more. Anything above 12.8:1 and I would get a little leary. Remember that is gas AFR not E85 AFR. Those 700hp cars were also running mid 20's for timing on the topend of a HTA35R and ~12.5:1 AFR with no issue's. You would be surprised how cool E85 runs. At 12.5:1 it is still cooler than pump at say 10.5:1. Check some threads about E85 EGT temps.

You might not be talking to gofer instead of me but I definitely know the joys of E85. I pretty much shut my wastegate on my old e316g setup and had 22 degrees of timing on a stock engine short of arp head studs. As far as the lower EGT's, I'm wondering if a part of the product of the EGT's being colder is due to the timing advance. EGT's usually are a problem with 91-93 octane pump gas heroes running <13 degrees of timing with high boost. I guess either way though, if e85 has lower egts due to timing advance or just because it burns cooler I guess it is still acceptable to go leaner. I've read reports that show that AFR isn't nearly as important on e85 as regular gas.
 
When we got my car to make 442/425 awhp/torque my afr was a conservative 12.0:1. When I was playing around with the tune on my B16G before I even went as lean as 12.8:1 and didn't see any knock.

I had the 16G tune settled in at 12.4:1 without any problems.
 
When we got my car to make 442/425 awhp/torque my afr was a conservative 12.0:1. When I was playing around with the tune on my B16G before I even went as lean as 12.8:1 and didn't see any knock.

I had the 16G tune settled in at 12.4:1 without any problems.

:D WES! :D
Sam said 11.5:1 AFR @ 21psi and then turn the boost up to 28psi, I'm not sure where that would put my AFR's but I'd think around a 12:1. I'm thinking 28psi is a bit much on stock hg/head bolts so 25psi is what I'll be tuning for.

Hows the PTE? Any word on the dyno day yet so I can see the hp/tq numbers I'm putting down now?

:dsm:
 
I got my turbo back with a new Garrett center section and wheels. I am still waiting on a couple transmission parts to put the car back together. In the mean time I'm debating selling the 50 trim and going HX40 instead. I figure now that it is pretty much brand new I can get the most out of it.
 
Sounds good Wes, can't wait to see everyone at RRE on dyno day.

For everyone that doesn't have dsmlink and still wants to see the gains from the 3 logs, I posted up the "go fast" info from each log in the bottom of the OP.

:dsm:
 
I did a little experiement... and E85 is very knock-friendly.
Even 16:1 is not producing any knock!
of course that is soo lean that the car is not making any power until the boost kicks in.
When its getting boost it runs very similare to a "normal" 12:1 tune??
 
No difference, the MBC was untouched... 21psi is it. The big thing I noticed was that it hit HARD right at 3.8K just like the E3 16g but it didn't let off after 6k in the RPM band, things were rattling in my car at WOT I've never heard before! :D

A guy on the link forums asked me to do a 2nd/3rd gear pull with the HTA68 since thats basically what your seeing in the E3 16g log. I'm going to do one tonight and I'll post it up before I go to bed.

:dsm:
Well, SOMETHING is different. . . The boostest reads 4psi lower with the 16g pull right at 5-5500rpm :nono: . That's the reason why the hta 68 is reading so much airflow at the same boost.
 
Well, SOMETHING is different. . . The boostest reads 4psi lower with the 16g pull right at 5-5500rpm :nono: . That's the reason why the hta 68 is reading so much airflow at the same boost.
Matt,
You know as well as I do that Boostest is just that, an estimate... granted its supposed to be spot on between 5k & 5.5k but thats never been the case on my car. I'm telling you that watching the boost gauge at WOT it sits at 21psi with the HTA68, just like it did with the 16g on there. The difference now is that the boost stays there, rather than falling off like it did with the 16g.

I need to get a MAP sensor to log actual boost, just one more thing I have on my laundry list of "to do's."

On link forums I posted these results and was asked to do a 2nd/3rd gear pull to compare it to the 16g log. The results are still A LOT different than the 16g 2nd/3rd gear log, I don't like my high IDC's in 2nd gear though. My 13yr old fuel filter needs replaced, hopefully that gets a little more out of the injectors/pump on E85.

:dsm:
 

Attachments

  • log.2010.03.24-02.elg
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Another vote here for more timing and leaner afr's on e85. My car loves 11.8:1 and 22*, any leaner and I pull a degree of timing above 7Krpms, but I don't knock. And as someone stated above about running e85 really lean, I accidentally made a couple pulls when I first switched over and I saw 16.xx:1 with no knock. I'm on a chip, but if I had direct timing control I'd try leaning it out another half to full point and back the timing off a bit to see what happens.
 
I know what boostest is. . .

If it reads off with one turbo, then it should read off with the other. Or you have a metering discrepancy. In this case, you have the ecu thinking there's 4psi less boost in the motor with the evo3 16g than with the hta 68. Immaterial to whether or not how accurate the ecu is at estimation, its still consistant with it's estimation. And it estimates based on the same inputs used to calculate fuel that keeps your motor from blowing to bits. You saying you are sure about the boost gauge reading only more solidly validates the metering discrepancy between the swap.

Your 2nd hta68 log shows an even more drastic difference in metered (boostest based) airflow.
 
I know what boostest is. . .

If it reads off with one turbo, then it should read off with the other. Or you have a metering discrepancy. In this case, you have the ecu thinking there's 4psi less boost in the motor with the evo3 16g than with the hta 68. Immaterial to whether or not how accurate the ecu is at estimation, its still consistant with it's estimation. And it estimates based on the same inputs used to calculate fuel that keeps your motor from blowing to bits. You saying you are sure about the boost gauge reading only more solidly validates the metering discrepancy between the swap.

Your 2nd hta68 log shows an even more drastic difference in metered (boostest based) airflow.
I hope you don't think I was trying to explain to you what BoostEst is because thats definitly not the case. I am still very new to this stuff so any info/knowledge you can pass on is great!

I am 110% that with the 16g on the boost gauge read no less than 20-21psi up until about 5.7k when it would start dropping off until redline. Same for the HTA68 because I watched it that last 2nd/3rd gear pull I did last night.

The metering descrepancy you found would be the MAF reading incorrectly or my MAFComp sliders are wrong?

:dsm:
 
I'm no expert when it comes to this threads but what a well thought out detailed post;). Thanks for posting, and great numbers on the hta68:thumb:.
 
I hope you don't think I was trying to explain to you what BoostEst is because thats definitly not the case. I am still very new to this stuff so any info/knowledge you can pass on is great!

I am 110% that with the 16g on the boost gauge read no less than 20-21psi up until about 5.7k when it would start dropping off until redline. Same for the HTA68 because I watched it that last 2nd/3rd gear pull I did last night.

The metering descrepancy you found would be the MAF reading incorrectly or my MAFComp sliders are wrong?

:dsm:

Boostest is only accurate and should only be used as a tuning tool from 5-5.5K for evos and dsm with stock manifolds. You have an evo manifold, so you qualify. At this point, even if it's not accurate, there's a huge DIFFERENCE at that is what is important. Since the ecu's job is to be more consistant than a carburetor, if the ecu is reading a drastically different number with the same hotside, then there is a real problem with metering the air of one of the runs. . .

This would be a boost leak most likely. . .
 
Boostest is only accurate and should only be used as a tuning tool from 5-5.5K for evos and dsm with stock manifolds. You have an evo manifold, so you qualify. At this point, even if it's not accurate, there's a huge DIFFERENCE at that is what is important. Since the ecu's job is to be more consistant than a carburetor, if the ecu is reading a drastically different number with the same hotside, then there is a real problem with metering the air of one of the runs. . .

This would be a boost leak most likely. . .
FWIW the hotside I was running on the 16g was ported to Corey specs (Corey being me) where as the HTA68 was ported by FP.

If there is a boost leak running the E3 16g then the leaks still there, the only IC pipe I touched was the j-pipe. I RTV'd it with the 16g same as the HTA68...

This really sucks because I was trying to keep EVERYTHING consistent between the setups, besides the turbo ofcourse. :ohdamn:

Heres a log I did with the E85, FP2 cams, & Evo 3 16g with the MBC still untouched and my BoostEst showing 20psi... My timing advance is garbage but it was still when I was coming off my 91 oct tune. The airflow numbers are still around 36 lb min. had I taken it to redline.

:dsm:
 

Attachments

  • log.2010.03.17-03.elg
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