1G: Faster spool than a Holset?

[Cassera]

Ok I am hearing very good things about holset turbos. Some of the things are that they are VERY durable and spool very fast. It seems as everybody now a days has a holset turbo. My question to you guys is, are there ANY turbos that spool faster than a holset turbo? (assuming of course they are meant for the same hp output)

Is everybody getting these turbos because they are cheap and spool pretty quick or is everybody getting these turbos because they are cheap and spool the fastest?

If you need a holset turbo to comapre to another one for spool speed than lets just say a HX-35.

And of course lets just say money is not a factor AT ALL.

[untouchablecc]

I dont know from personal experience. I would say people do holsets because of the cost and the power they put out for the price. They do spool but if my understanding is correct ball bearing would be the fastest spooling turbo. Many things effect spool as well. Air flow, compression, displacement, engine timing. There are things you can do to speed up your spool time.

[Cassera]

Originally Posted by untouchablecc

I dont know from personal experience. I would say people do holsets because of the cost and the power they put out for the price. They do spool but if my understanding is correct ball bearing would be the fastest spooling turbo. Many things effect spool as well. Air flow, compression, displacement, engine timing. There are things you can do to speed up your spool time.

Yeah I always thought dual bearings spooled faster too.
Air flow can definately effect spool time, but lets just say the holset is on a car with a "TYPE A" setup, would their be a different turbo you could put into that "TYPE A" setup designed for the same power output that would spool faster?

[1gDSM4g63]

Ball bearing or even dual ball bearing do not spool faster than the Holset turbos. They will far outspool it, it's a disgrace to Garrett's turbos. The Holset turbo are just engineered better while being a lot stronger and easily rebuildable compare the Garretts. For example the HX40 with pro compressor is pretty much equivalent to the GT40R flowing 69-70 lb/min but the HX40 spools about 20 psi at 4300 rpm whereas the GT40R probably spools at 5000+ rpm. Then for a bigger turbo, the HX52 can outspool the HTA GT35R and overflow it by 10 lb/min.

[Cassera]

Wow, I think you just shifted me from wanting a Forced Performance turbo to a Holset.......it Just seems crazy....No, INSANE that holsets can spool faster than dual bearings for a fraction of the cost. Do all holsets have fast spool times???

I just had my mind blown.

[1gDSM4g63]

Well the HX35 can take the GT30R, while the HX40 can take the GT40R, so will the HX52 vs. HTA GT35R, GT35R, GT40R or the GT42R.

I can't really think of any other turbo that will outspool or be even close to it while flow as much as it.

[jusmx141]

Are there faster spooling turbos? Yes. There are plenty of turbos that are smaller than a HX35/HX40 that spool very quickly.

Are there turbos that spool just as fast as a Holset and make more airflow? Yes. Some of the newer ball-bearing Billet turbos by FP and PTE spool quick initially, have great transient boost response, and are quite duarble. They also carry a hefty price tag of 3-4 times more than most good used or rebuild Holsets.

Are there any journal-bearing mid-framed turbos that can outspool and outflow a Holset? Not really. Nothing Mitsubishi or Garrett makes even comes close right out of the box....about the only manufacturer that comes close to Holset in spool time related to airflow is Borg Warner.

[Cassera]

Originally Posted by jusmx141

Are there faster spooling turbos? Yes. There are plenty of turbos that are smaller than a HX35/HX40 that spool very quickly.

Are there turbos that spool just as fast as a Holset and make more airflow? Yes. Some of the newer ball-bearing Billet turbos by FP and PTE spool quick initially, have great transient boost response, and are quite duarble. They also carry a hefty price tag of 3-4 times more than most good used or rebuild Holsets.

Are there any journal-bearing mid-framed turbos that can outspool and outflow a Holset? Not really. Nothing Mitsubishi or Garrett makes even comes close right out of the box....about the only manufacturer that comes close to Holset in spool time related to airflow is Borg Warner.

Hmmm, interesting. So which turbos from FP or PTE spool the same and have more airflow than lets just say a hx-35?
I would love to do more research into this.

[1gDSM4g63]

The FP HTA GT3076R can be comparable to the HX35 but I don't know what the spooling rate is and if it can be comparable to the hx35, but it's about 4x the price of a HX35 and I don't think the benefits if there are any are worth it.

[tim4g63fast]

ball bearing turbo chargers do not spool up that much faster than a properly sized turbo for your engine setup. I guess thats my opinion, shyt garrett only claims a (up to) a 15 percent quicker spool with the cartridge ball bearing over the journal bearing. Ball bearing turbochargers were not designed to spool faster, they were designed to better the reliability of high output turbos. When running high boost the turbo sees a lot of stress. The ball bearing turbo is designed to handle those stresses.

also people say quicker spool thinking there getting boost sooner in the rpm range... WRONG

bearing turbos improve the rate of acceleration of the exhaust wheel resulting in quicker boost but the A/R ratio determines when the boost will start

[Red Alert]

Originally Posted by Cassera

I would love to do more research into this.

There are 7 major threads on the Holset turbochargers, plenty of discussion in those...

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7

[Cassera]

Originally Posted by Red Alert

There are 7 major threads on the Holset turbochargers, plenty of discussion in those...

1
2
3
4
5
6
7

Actually I was looking at all 7 of those before I made this post. Those threads are what made me post this.
Thanks everybody for the feedback though. I will look into it some more. If anybody has any other turbos on their minds feel free to post.

[1gDSM4g63]

Originally Posted by tim4g63fast

also people say quicker spool thinking there getting boost sooner in the rpm range... WRONG

Please explain how that is WRONG?

Originally Posted by tim4g63fast

bearing turbos improve the rate of acceleration of the exhaust wheel resulting in quicker boost but the A/R ratio determines when the boost will start

True, the housing a/r is part of the factor of the spool rate. Although the a/r is also a factor the airflow which can produce more hp when it's bigger.

[dsm-onster]

The reason why holsets spool faster is due to efficiency. Comparing the compressor maps and turbine wheel characteristics with a knowledgeable eye, you can see that the hx35 displays techniques that allow for superior efficiency.

The hx35 turbine wheel is more efficiency that turbine wheels of the same flow from other manufacturers. This means that the hx35 turbine wheel extracts more energy from the exhaust gases to do work on the turbo shaft. More work = more compressor rpm = seeing a certain boost threshold earlier in the rpm range.

Also the hx35 compressor wheel is more efficient over a broader flow range. Less energy is converted to heat, more to compressing the aircharge. Requiring less energy from the turbo shaft to see a certain boost threshold = seeing that boost threshold earlier in the rpm range.

Ballistic tech is a bandaid for wheels of less efficiency, IMO. Trying to free up energy elsewhere instead of making the wheels just as effective with less energy.

Originally Posted by tim4g63fast

ball bearing turbo chargers do not spool up that much faster than a properly sized turbo for your engine setup. I guess thats my opinion, shyt garrett only claims a (up to) a 15 percent quicker spool with the cartridge ball bearing over the journal bearing. Ball bearing turbochargers were not designed to spool faster, they were designed to better the reliability of high output turbos. When running high boost the turbo sees a lot of stress. The ball bearing turbo is designed to handle those stresses.

Example of a garrett turbo with properly matched wheels to a goal of 500whp: fp3052. Example of a holset turbo with properly matched wheels to a goal of 500whp: bolton 8blade hx35. 8blade Hx35 flows 52 lb/min and so does the fp3052, but the fp3052 spools about as fast as the bolton hx40.

Originally Posted by tim4g63fast

also people say quicker spool thinking there getting boost sooner in the rpm range... WRONG

I would like to understand what that means too. Do you mean when boost starts? or when a certian boost threshold is seen, like 20psi or 25psi.

Originally Posted by tim4g63fast

bearing turbos improve the rate of acceleration of the exhaust wheel resulting in quicker boost but the A/R ratio determines when the boost will start

Again give the hx35 the same turbine housing as the fp3052, and the hx35 will spool faster and flow at least jsut as much.

[Cassera]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

Again give the hx35 the same turbine housing as the fp3052, and the hx35 will spool faster and flow at least jsut as much.

Hmmm, is it possible to do this?
You see my dilema is trying to figure out a good set-up (or I should say turbo set-up) for a 2.3 stroker 8:5:1 compression and fp4's.

I don't mind having lag at all because I want the powerband to be in the upper rpm but ay if I could find a turbo with less lag and the same output, even better.

I was also looking into a Hx-40 because the setup I am planning on doing will really get that baby spooling. Also would you be able to put a turbine housing from a FP turbo into a Hx-40 and have it spolin faster with the same or more flow?

[1gDSM4g63]

If you have a stroker then I'd go with a HX40 and no, you cannot use a FP housing on a HX40 compressor. There's either a BEP bolton .55 A/R, BEP T3 .70 A/R, or the a big to use the T3 or T4 that diesel trucks use.

Just go with a bolton. Badman21 has made 685hp and 584tq.

[Cassera]

Thanks a lot.....that info was VERY usefull....I will definately look into it!

[tim4g63fast]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

T


Example of a garrett turbo with properly matched wheels to a goal of 500whp: fp3052. Example of a holset turbo with properly matched wheels to a goal of 500whp: bolton 8blade hx35. 8blade Hx35 flows 52 lb/min and so does the fp3052, but the fp3052 spools about as fast as the bolton hx40.


I would like to understand what that means too. Do you mean when boost starts? or when a certian boost threshold is seen, like 20psi or 25psi.



Again give the hx35 the same turbine housing as the fp3052, and the hx35 will spool faster and flow at least jsut as much.

yeah I know how efficient the holsets are efficient im not arguing that I own a billet hx40. I was simply stating what the ball bearing turbos were designed for not saying they out performed a holset the whole reason I went with a holset was the fact that that they virtually out performed garrett and were cheap.

I typically refer to spooling up faster as where yous start to see positive manifold pressure in the rpm range. From every experience I have had that is determined by the a/r not the bearing type some people say it starts earlier but garrett states themselves its up to 15 percent.. Figure that out 15 percent @ xxxxrpm its a little gain if any... From my understanding the biggest positive a ball bearing turbo provides is how it performs between shifts.

[1gDSM4g63]

Originally Posted by Cassera

Thanks a lot.....that info was VERY usefull....I will definately look into it!

Also check out the Holset Results forum.

[dsm-onster]

What is your goal?

Originally Posted by tim4g63fast

yeah I know how efficient the holsets are efficient im not arguing that I own a billet hx40. I was simply stating what the ball bearing turbos were designed for not saying they out performed a holset the whole reason I went with a holset was the fact that that they virtually out performed garrett and were cheap.

I typically refer to spooling up faster as where yous start to see positive manifold pressure in the rpm range. From every experience I have had that is determined by the a/r not the bearing type some people say it starts earlier but garrett states themselves its up to 15 percent.. Figure that out 15 percent @ xxxxrpm its a little gain if any... From my understanding the biggest positive a ball bearing turbo provides is how it performs between shifts.

I see what you mean.

[jm1080]

I have been doing so much research on these holset turbos because I was planning on buying one, but after looking at logs of hx35 (what I planned to buy), these turbos are slow spooling in my eyes. From the logs I have seen I see spool of 15psi -20psi in around 4.5k-5k and maybe around 25-30 in 6k rpm range, to me that seems real slow spool since I will be shifting at around 6k. These are from logs I have seen on ecmlink forums. Some are 2nd gear pulls too!

I also asked members and they state it does not pull as hard, it is more of a steady pull, like it does not pull you to the back of your seat and hold you like 50 trims, etc. And for these turbos to make power you need over 30psi of boost, my friends fp3052 outspools hx35 and makes more power at only 26lbs of boost over an hx35 of the same boost level. You really need boost on these turbos to make them fast, plus the pull isn't as hard. I'm not trying to diss these turbos but this is from everything I gathered, correct me if I'm wrong.

[red_devil]

Originally Posted by jm1080

I have been doing so much research on these holset turbos because I was planning on buying one, but after looking at logs of hx35 (what I planned to buy), these turbos are slow spooling in my eyes. From the logs I have seen I see spool of 15psi -20psi in around 4.5k-5k and maybe around 25-30 in 6k rpm range, to me that seems real slow spool since I will be shifting at around 6k. These are from logs I have seen on ecmlink forums. Some are 2nd gear pulls too!

I also asked members and they state it does not pull as hard, it is more of a steady pull, like it does not pull you to the back of your seat and hold you like 50 trims, etc. And for these turbos to make power you need over 30psi of boost, my friends fp3052 outspools hx35 and makes more power at only 26lbs of boost over an hx35 of the same boost level. You really need boost on these turbos to make them fast, plus the pull isn't as hard. I'm not trying to diss these turbos but this is from everything I gathered, correct me if I'm wrong.

What your saying sounds more like a HX40 with the larger .70 A/R. My bolton HX40 sees 20psi by 4100rpm which is real fast for that size of turbo. I would like to see the logs you are talking about. I would like proof that a fp3052 can out spool the hx35 on the bolt on housing.

Another thing is why the hell are you running to 6k?? such a waste of the powerband. You cannot get a large turbo and run it at that low rpms and expect to get the most out of it. Ive never been in a 50trim car but my Holset spool is smooth and will put you in the seat no problem. These turbos are more at home above 25psi you are right but they still can be effiecent below that.

[jusmx141]

Originally Posted by jm1080

I have been doing so much research on these holset turbos because I was planning on buying one, but after looking at logs of hx35 (what I planned to buy), these turbos are slow spooling in my eyes. From the logs I have seen I see spool of 15psi -20psi in around 4.5k-5k and maybe around 25-30 in 6k rpm range, to me that seems real slow spool since I will be shifting at around 6k. These are from logs I have seen on ecmlink forums. Some are 2nd gear pulls too!

This varies greatly on the turbine housing you're using. I recently built one for a guy to use on his 2G AWD Auto, and he's currently seeing more brake-boosting power than with the FP 18G-6SL2 it replaced.

I've probably sold close to (50) HX35's to DSMers, and not a single one has complained about it's spool characteristic compared to the total achievable airflow.

Talondave is seeing 30psi by 4500rpms, and that was with a whooped-up 139k stock 7.8:1 6-bolt. He was also using the larger of the two BEP housing choices, the T3 .70 a/r.


When you compare the HX35's airflow numbers to a Garrett turbo of equal size, the HX35 spools faster. During the 2008 season, Dacowgod ran a PTE 6031E in a .82 a/r T3 housing and was generating the same airflow as a HX35 in a .70 BEP housing, but he was reaching full boost at 4500rpms with a built 2.0 block using 9.0:1 pistons. This would've been much later on a stock engine- too late considering the airflow.

The problem with the 6031E? The damn thing wouldn't stay together under boost over 30psi. It blew up either three or four times from various oil sources- the last being fatal. He's since switched to a HX40 and gained nearly 120whp over the best dyno run with the 6031E, and the turbo hasn't given him a lick of trouble.

[jm1080]

I see what you guys are saying, I don't doubt it, just never experienced it, but always wanted to. It is just what I have read and comparing to other turbos. On my evo16g, it pulls your neck back at 26lbs on e85 with a pretty high timing curve, and full boost around 3.5k. I just want something with similar spool, but pulls your body back like I have seen on fp green or fp3052. I believe fp3052 full spool is around the same as hx35 in bolt on housing, but the pull on hx35 is not near the pull of fp3052 from what I read or a 50 trim in the same psi level, lets say 26lbs. But I heard from members once you get to 30psi, it is a beast. I'm just comparing what I researched, maybe I'm asking for too much

[twinsnails]

Ummm, I do not know what you are talking about maybe this is better left to some of the wiser guys, but I am sure that a holset will go toe to toe at 26psi with those turbo's you listed. And as far as spool times go it is just not going to happen like an e3 16g does, but then again I would be looking at flow rates at the same rpm, it is not all about what boost level you are pushing at a given rpm.

[dsm-onster]

Not sure what logs you're seeing. But they could have issues or running different turbine housings other than the bolt on. Here's is what the bolton hx40 does with the bolton housing: 20psi by 3900rpms in 3rd. Looks more like what you're seeing.

Considering the hx35 has a 20% smaller area turbine wheel with the same aero tech, it certainly must spool substancially faster than the hx40 with the same housing. . . I have logs somewhere in the holset threads of the older tech h1c spooling about like the small 16g. Older tech, same basic turbine wheel shape though. In the bolton housing.

And WRT sub-30psi results. 11.2 @28psi with stock manifolds and 272s. Not bad for a bolton and not the best 60ft. Havn't seen too many fp3052s that can do that at that "lower" boost level with stock manifolds. I know 99% of the dsmlink logs of any holset are of setups that dont have a smim upgrade.

And here's 500whp on a lower reading mustang dyno w/ bolton hx35. 31psi, fp2s, stock intake mani, slipping clutch. That's right on par with a fp3052 if you ask me or even a little better considering the slipping clutch. Look at his torque curve. Nearly full torque at 3900rpms. So FULL boost was clearly before that.

The fp3052 (non hta) spools later than the hx35. And the hotside flows more up top. The stock 12cm^2 hx35 turbine housing puts the spool at about the same, but then you also have a much larger housing for that high end pull (that hx35 hotside has done 132mph in a full weight car). Thing is the compressors flow the same (actually the 7blade compressor flows 60lb/min, 8 more than the fp3052) so the larger hotside that the fp3052 is only really helping to create more hp per psi up to choke; chokes at a lower boost as the hx35 chokes at a higher boost. since the compressors flow similarly. Difference, the hx35 likes the higher boost more than the fp3052 by far. You can get an ERL t3 manifold and a 7blade hx35 and spool about the same as the fp3052 have at least jsut as much power per psi and have 8lb/min more potential flow, while spending less than half in costs for a better flowing setup since you have the erl upgrade manifold.

[jusmx141]

Originally Posted by twinsnails

I would be looking at flow rates at the same rpm, it is not all about what boost level you are pushing at a given rpm.

Boost level has more to do with airflow than RPM does in my opinion. Compare the airflow numbers on an Evo III 16G, FP 3052, and HX35 at 25psi....then crank the boost up to 30psi with each turbo and see how those peak numbers change.

There are too many variables considering spool time and when a certain turbo generates the most airflow, which is why most guys gauge compressor efficiency by looking at peak airflow numbers at a given RPM and not just airflow at one particular RPM across the board. You can't just figure that all three of the turbos I listed above will make their most airflow at 5375rpms and gauge them on that.

[Cassera]

So in your opinions, which ar housing should I use for a hx-40 concidering it is a 2.3 stroker reving to 7000, fp4 cams and power designed for up top. I want to get the most out of the hx-40.

If it is a bigger AR housing what does that effect?
Im assuming slower spool time but more power up top
and a lower AR housing produces faster spool but less power up top than a bigger housing?

Is this right?

If thats the case than I think I'll settle for the hx-40 in a smaller housing because I am confident i will be seeing better results considering I wont be maxing out the hx-40

[jusmx141]

Originally Posted by Cassera

I want to get the most out of the hx-40.

T3 .70 without a doubt.

Originally Posted by Cassera

If thats the case than I think I'll settle for the hx-40 in a smaller housing because I am confident i will be seeing better results considering I wont be maxing out the hx-40

Make up your goddamn mind.

[Cassera]

Lol, I see how that can be contradicting.....I meant I want to get a wide powerband with the hx-40....or I should say WIDER powerband. Thats what I mean by get the most out of it. I should have said that instead lol.

Now that this is said, do you still reccomend the .70 ar or smaller?