Maxing a 14b on pump?

[RadDsm]

Im looking to find out what would be the safe max boost I could run on my 14b before its out of its efficiancy range on 92 pump gas.

Mods are:

Ported 14b
Ported 2g exhaust manifold
2.5" SS o2
3" turbo back no cat
Crower 272s
FMIC
EVO injectors
255lph fuel pump
AFPR
SAFCII
Logger
Wideband/boost/oil pressure gauges

This will be on a fresh rebuild bottom end with 1g rods and 2g pistons, also rebuilt head with 3g lifters and evo9 springs/retainers. I'm pretty sure I have all the supporting mods.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Steve93Talon]

Safe max what? Boost? AFR? Timing? You don't list a wideband, do you have one? I'd tune for 10.5-11:1 AFRs. You have an AFC for tuning so you can't control timing so your best bet is to get the AFRs dialed in then up the boost until you reach your knock threshold. I'd guess probably 19-21 psi will be the sweet spot.

 

[RadDsm]

Safe boost sorry

I do have an AEM UEGO and boost/ oil pressure gauges.

 

[Gooberlog]

The FMIC should help you a lot. At higher boost levels the 14b feeds a lot of hot air so a FMIC will help, also meth injection would probably do wonders. I've ran 26 psi on race gas and it fell off to 22 by 7k rpm and netted a 12.4 with a somewhat light car. On pump gas "93 oct" my 14b would always respond best to running at 18 psi. To help max out your 14b set up, upgrade your turbine housing "hot side of the turbo" to a 7cm housing from a 16g turbo. Did wonders for my old set up and you can find them in the classifieds from time to time. Good luck.

 

[RadDsm]

Thanks!

Would porting to match a 7cm be fine, or should I buy the 16g hotside?

 

[habitatguy187]

^^^ Only if the 14b does not have the 7cm^2 turbine housing and only if the 14b is at it's compressor flow limit. If you're looking for no more than what 33-34lb/min can give you for your setup, and you swap to a 7cm^2 turbine housing, the 14b will have about the same shape hp/tq curve as a 16g.

The 14b will never do what any 16g will do with or without a 7cm^2 turbine housing. The 6cm^2 turbine housing really chokes the compressor. The 14b map extends to about 34lb/min; 60% efficiency. The small 16g map extends to about 38lb/min; 60% efficiency. So no matter how hard you push a 14b, no matter how much hp per lb/min you can generate, you will always have 4lb/min more potential out of the small 16g on the compressor side.

You can run a 7cm^2 turbine housing on your 14b and see the limit of the 14b compressor and rev the ever loving snot out of the wheel to get to 34lb/min. Or you can run a small 16g and have about the same lag as a 7cm^2 14b and get that 34lb/min while still being over 70% efficient and not be overworking the compressor. But if you already have a good 14b, then all you really need is a used 7cm^2 turbine housing and you can certainly see over 300whp. And probably on pump gas if you have decent intercooling. Guys have pushed the absolute limit of the 14b compressor with the stock 6cm^2 turbine housing. But your life will be so much easier and you can probably make the same power on pump gas, if you use a 16g 7cm^2 turbine housing on your 14b. You will have a 16g hotside, which has been capable of seeing 400whp on pump gas. And as I've alluded, if you have a decent intercooler, compressor efficiency becomes moot. So though the 14b compressor is less efficient that won't account for about 3-4 degrees increase in intake temps based on thermodynamics and imperical data collected by various users.

Porting a 6cm^2 no matter if it's to the out side of the wall still will not make it flow as much as a 7cm^2 turbine housing. When you port you're opening up the entrance, not opening up the entire volute. The critical area (volute area per a radius length) is what increases a turbine housing's flow. Port matching helps the turbine housing do what it should by just smooting out the transition. And buying the seal ring instead of porting the manifold and turbine housing inlet will still give you a smooth transition whill keeping the collector volume down. This is better for spool and for topend since higher velocity does more work on the turbine which in turn can do more work keeping the compressor up in your desired boost.

Same thing goes with a 7cm^2 16g turbine housing.

I say DO NOT port your 16g. I've run them ported so that there's no step for where the seal ring went with a 2g manifold which was opened up to match. And I've run one with my other option which involves no porting at all. And I noticed NO difference! ZERO! Spool was the same or worse with the ported setup. It was hard to really see much of a difference in spool so I'll leave it as the spool was the same. I saw 36lb/min at 22 psi with my setup with a ported manifold/housing and I saw 36lb/min after with the same setup boost and NO porting using my other technique. The other technique is outlined here: Don't port your 16g.

I was actually a little angry that I has spent literally days porting the 2g manifold and turbine housing. If you have a 2g manifold dont waste your time, do the above mod instead. If you have an evo3 exhaust manifold. Buy the damn 7cm^2 seal ring. You'll have a smooth transition which otherwise would take hours and hours to make with a grinder. Leave your grinding time and energy for the wastegate. Those who felt a gain in their 14b or 16g turbo setup after porting never used a seal ring. Their hours of work paid them however much a seal ring costs. . . or less, what my above mod costs. A big for all your effort because there's no benefit in performance over a properly sealed transition.

. . . Nevermind the stress you take off of your turbo gasket by sealing it properly.

There ya go.

 

[DSMunknown]

Your mod list is (currently) similar to my own. I've got her boost set in the low 20s right now, so don't be a wuss.

 

[toofast82]

I currently(for short time) run a 14b/7cm/20psi/20*timing/11:1aft and it surprises me compared to some of the other turbos i've ran in the past

 

[RadDsm]

Ok, I'm going to look for a 16g hotside.

Are the ones on ebay fine?

I just looked in the tech articles, is there a how to on swapping them?

 

[toofast82]

Ok, I'm going to look for a 16g hotside.

Are the ones on ebay fine?

I just looked in the tech articles, is there a how to on swapping them?

I have no firsthand experience with the ebay ones, mine is an FP housing i've had for some time.
There is a clamp that holds the exhaust housing to the centersection of turbo. It is a 10mm bolt. Be careful not to damage turbine wheel when removing.

 

[DSMunknown]

Turbine housing removal on a 90 AWD
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...303828-td05h-td06-turbo-rebuild-part-1-a.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...303829-td05h-td06-turbo-rebuild-part-2-a.html

 

[v8killer]

i could only run 18-19 that would fall to 14-15 on pump 93 before knock and that was maxed @ 33-34 lbs a min.@ around 6000rpms . the knock was at 5000 and would go away till redline. iguess it was because the boost came on so fast ? that will be your biggest hurdle on pump !

 

[toofast82]

i could only run 18-19 that would fall to 14-15 on pump 93 before knock and that was maxed @ 33-34 lbs a min.@ around 6000rpms . the knock was at 5000 and would go away till redline. iguess it was because the boost came on so fast ? that will be your biggest hurdle on pump !

Mine holds the 20psi all the way, but that might be because I have external wastegate!
Before I got it tuned out, if I was getting any knock it was in the 4-5k rpm range.
33-34lbs is pretty impressive and shows the 14b is capable of producing good power and lightning quick spoolup! You have to be somewhat conservative with the timing on pump to fight the knock.

 

[v8killer]

Mine holds the 20psi all the way, but that might be because I have external wastegate!
Before I got it tuned out, if I was getting any knock it was in the 4-5k rpm range.
33-34lbs is pretty impressive and shows the 14b is capable of producing good power and lightning quick spoolup! You have to be somewhat conservative with the timing on pump to fight the knock.

every other 14b i have owned would creep but this one is a 6cm housing ported and i have cams and big front mount and the reason that it flows 33-34 lbs a
min @ 6000 tells me that the turbo is maxed to why it looses boost but still flows and makes power ? but i currently have the 14b off the car going to a holset h1c in a bep housing but the 14b was very strong..... i beat my buddies [email protected] stang pulling him about 2 cars from a roll just through 3rd gear only ! the 14b is fun if thats the only turbo you have.

 

[toofast82]

every other 14b i have owned would creep but this one is a 6cm housing ported and i have cams and big front mount and the reason that it flows 33-34 lbs a
min @ 6000 tells me that the turbo is maxed to why it looses boost but still flows and makes power ?

When i had an internal setup, when i set it to 16-17psi it would creep. When I would set it any higher and the boost would hit higher but drop off at the top of the powerband. You're definitely at the max of the 14b at 34lbs. How long until you have the H1c rollin'?

 

[v8killer]

When i had an internal setup, when i set it to 16-17psi it would creep. When I would set it any higher and the boost would hit higher but drop off at the top of the powerband. You're definitely at the max of the 14b at 34lbs. How long until you have the H1c rollin'?

hopefully i will have it installed this weekend if i get all the parts rounded up. i wish i could have took the 14b to the track before pulling it but it rained every weekend we planned to go.

 

[Gooberlog]

When i had an internal setup, when i set it to 16-17psi it would creep. When I would set it any higher and the boost would hit higher but drop off at the top of the powerband. You're definitely at the max of the 14b at 34lbs. How long until you have the H1c rollin'?

Yeah for me, anything below 18psi and it would creep up, and anything above 18psi and the boost would fall off. It really like 18 for some reason. But the more i ran the less the boost would fall off.
Were you saying that he runs 34psi on the 14b?

 

[toofast82]

Were you saying that he runs 34psi on the 14b?

No, we were talking about lbs/min flow

The 14b is a good turbo capable of a little over 300whp, but its only a matter of time before the OP will be looking for more power.

 

[rEclipserGST]

I also have a 14b with all supporting mods. Just wondering can I max out a 14b on e85 with 880cc injectors? Or will it be a better idea to just try and max it on pump? I figured I would be in the 20 psi range either way.

 

[habitatguy187]

^^^ You can't max out a 14b on pump alone. You would get much more out of it using e85. And yes, your injectors can handle it no problem, just make sure you have enough fuel pump. (too lazy to check profile/internet too slow )

 

[camfast]

I would also suggest getting bigger injectors. If you have the afc, then try to get some 650-680cc they will work really good with a FPR and hacked 1g mas or a 2g mas.

Right now im running 18psi on an 18g on 550's and my IDC is at 103% even with my fuel pressure set at 43psi.

Try to get bigger injectors so that you can maximize your psi and you wont have to upgrade later

 

[Gooberlog]

Yeah if i remember, my IDC's were almost 100% when i ran 550's with my 16G. I imagine an 18G would be way to much for 550s.