Holy Compressor Surge Batman!!!

[turboglenn]

Today on my way back from a trip to lincoln to tune all my cruising and mid throttle cells i started tuning up in the 4500-5000 RPM range under light to medium loads when all the sudden i feel the car start bucking like mad, i can hear the compressor surging so hard i thouight the compressor wheel was going to fly off .

I mean this thing was surging something fierce, i replicated the surge another 3 times just to be sure where and what load it was happening under. It seems anywhere near 4500 and above at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle and roughly 20+ psi, this turbo just isn't happy. The water/meth injection had stopped the surging so well for so long now that i forgot it would even do it so badly. Plus i'm usually WIOT by the time i'm at 4500 and above in teh RPM's because i baby the car or beat the car, no in between and although this turbo is great for drag racing it wouldn't last too long at all on a road course where 3/4 throttle and high boost is a common thing.

I was just rather surprised as to how bad it was surging this time, it's enver been this bad on pertrolium fuels, but i've never ran that much boost on a steady enough basis to come across this problem either. I'm almost starting to think the E85 is a little too good and allowing me to run in areas of the compressor map that i've never before touched (well, along with the meth injection) And although i'm finding out i like my turbo a lot better than i did on pump gas , i am starting to encounter some of the pitfgalls of teh 57trim wheel

There's really no point to this post, but i had to tell some one MY girl is so sick of hearing about the car, that i don't talk about it anymore unless it's broke or we're driving it to go where ever>>>

 

[dsm-onster]

There's really no point to this post, but i had to tell some one MY girl is so sick of hearing about the car, that i don't talk about it anymore unless it's broke or we're driving it to go where ever>>>

My wife rolls her eyes when ever I say, "My car. . ."

There is a point. Injection helps battle compressor surge. . . THAT, is a good thing.

 

[andy4g63]

You guys are lucky.
She/my wife/ wants to set my car on fire.

 

[bling5tatus]

My girlfriend of four years HATES when I talk about my car....

 

[delta448]

My wife keeps asking me if I want to sell mine. All her friends and our families keep giving me the whole "that's not a very good family car" routine. So then I tell them I'm hoping on buying a used Evo eventually and they're always like "what's that?", or "so what are you doing with that Talon? -I'll buy it from you for $XXXX", or "why do you still want to keep the Talon then?"(< the ones that known I'm not selling).

Anytime I talk about buying something for it, fixing something on it or even just putting gas in it, my wife says "all you care about is that damn car", even though I probably spend more time and money fixing/maintaining hers. Last month she hit a deer which ripped off the driver's side mirror and smashed the front fender and door in on her car, quoted about $1700 to fix (personally, I can't fix bodywork myself worth a crap). But then she gets mad when I need tires, brake pads or washer fluid. "Money's too tight right now, can't you wait?".

 

[secondnature]

See what we go through with these cars that we love so much! My mom and dad and sometimes other people say why do you waste your money on that car.Its hardly ever running and so on.Or some people say get a honda!? Yeah right then i would do things to it and it would be right were the talon is.Yes even theres a point were we are like man fix one thing and something else breaks .But hey thats what we are into and what we like to do .And we learn something new everytime too.Gotta love dsm`s though .17 year old cars and they still run like a champ/ "when there running good that is " haha.

 

[droppinbottom]

Z My wife just has the same statement lately." You are going to do it anyways so just go ahead and do it" On the other hand she is keeping a running tally of the parts I have purchased and then upgraded again.

OP it seems like you like the e85 but my question for you is do you have multiple fuel stations selling it? Here we only have one in the city and if I understand correctly it would severly limit my driving options with my car(having to stay within a certain radius of the station).

 

[bling5tatus]

My wife keeps asking me if I want to sell mine. All her friends and our families keep giving me the whole "that's not a very good family car" routine. So then I tell them I'm hoping on buying a used Evo eventually and they're always like "what's that?", or "so what are you doing with that Talon? -I'll buy it from you for $XXXX", or "why do you still want to keep the Talon then?"(< the ones that known I'm not selling).

Anytime I talk about buying something for it, fixing something on it or even just putting gas in it, my wife says "all you care about is that damn car", even though I probably spend more time and money fixing/maintaining hers. Last month she hit a deer which ripped off the driver's side mirror and smashed the front fender and door in on her car, quoted about $1700 to fix (personally, I can't fix bodywork myself worth a crap). But then she gets mad when I need tires, brake pads or washer fluid. "Money's too tight right now, can't you wait?".

Dude, I feel sorry for you. I'm enough of an ass that, as a joke, I would go get a tshirt made that says, "The Talon doesn't ask me questions I hate answering." Or something along those lines.... and then wear it to "the fam's" house.

I hate when people are "trying to be helpful" by offering their questions that are meant to corner your way of thinking.... like you're an idiot and you're just holding on to that car because you're too stupid to move on... for some crazy reason.

 

[dsm-onster]

Wow. Didn't mean to open this can of worms.

Anytime I talk about buying something for it, fixing something on it or even just putting gas in it, my wife says "all you care about is that damn car", even though I probably spend more time and money fixing/maintaining hers. Last month she hit a deer which ripped off the driver's side mirror and smashed the front fender and door in on her car, quoted about $1700 to fix (personally, I can't fix bodywork myself worth a crap). But then she gets mad when I need tires, brake pads or washer fluid. "Money's too tight right now, can't you wait?".

Yea. I've made the mistake of saying, "It's ok that it broke. It's like a hobby to me." I have to hate what I'm doing for me not to be 'selfish' . If I vent my excitement on her she scolds me for being 'obsessed'. If I vent my excitement here, she says I care more about people I can't even see. . . Then the other day, she asked me if I could swap my engine/head/performance parts to a Sebring convertable. "It's a bigger car. I've always wanted a convertable. Everyone in the family can have fun." Oo! If only the 2g spider had a fifth seatbelt! What a happy family we would be!

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[Dsm2nr89]

Haha thank god i'm not the only one here who feels the same way about our cars. My grandparents tell me not to waste so much money on my car cause its old and not worth it but thing is i love the car. And like secondnature said, you fix something and something else breaks, yet we never get tired of it cause we still own them

 

[turboglenn]

OP it seems like you like the e85 but my question for you is do you have multiple fuel stations selling it? Here we only have one in the city and if I understand correctly it would severly limit my driving options with my car(having to stay within a certain radius of the station).

Yea, love the E85, it's a great fuel! But so far i've only found one gas station in omaha that has it and there's usually a line at the pump

Every gas station i stop at for a drink or what have you, i alwasy ask them when they are going to get it and most of them act like E85 is already on it's way out or something. People around here are weird HAHA

 

[layzie12g]

I just put a scm 6152R on my car and it is not going well. NO BOOST LEAKS too by the way. The car gets richer are you let off the gas. Bucks under boost most the time and dies if you let the rpm fall to idle everytime. I had 950ccs in the car and switched back to the 650s because i thought i might need an aftermarket fpr. Same problem although the car ran a little smoother. Had several people mess with the global and dead times and nothing. All of them knew what they were doing and very familiar with dsm link. The only things were changed was the turbo, injectors, and a 4 inch intake pipe with a bov recirculating tube coming out of it. We are stuck and im getting pissed off. Car is just about undrivable. I posted this here because the car bucks like hell when the bov would usual flutter.

 

[turboglenn]

I would try some new plugs first and gap them correctly, don't trust them out of the box.

 

[Car Cannibal]

Sounds like you have an FMIC with your turbo, I've had this issue and getting a K75 Tornado will cure the surge. It's worked on both of the 1G's I've recommended it to and the guy laughed until he was able to hold any psi on the highway without the bucking, no more turbulence.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Sounds like you have an FMIC with your turbo, I've had this issue and getting a K75 Tornado will cure the surge. It's worked on both of the 1G's I've recommended it to and the guy laughed until he was able to hold any psi on the highway without the bucking, no more turbulence.

I really have a hard time believing that tornado business is useful for anything. Thats the general consensus of the community,at least.

 

[turboglenn]

agreed, if the compressor is surging it's because it's off it's map as far as airflow and what the engine can intake at a given throttle opening, not because there's some turbulance in the intake tract. at least that would be my opinion on the matter

 

[fwdeclipse]

When you say off the map as far as airflow do you mean the motor wont allow any more air to be forced in so the turbo surges. I know when surging happens just not really the exact cause of it.

 

[Car Cannibal]

Ok, well I am telling you from actual experience that it worked on all three turbo cars I have had contact with that had bad surge. You SAY it won't work but haven't tried it, I TELL you it will work because I've done it now on three turbo cars.

Most people base their opinions of the Tornado on those internet posts that dog the product because of the HP and MPG claims. I'm telling you to get it to stop compressor surge, not that it'll make 20hp and give you 2mpg better fuel mileage.

If you want more proof, check out the Grand National boards, they are doing it and if they are willing to try it, then anyone is. This crowd hates blow offs etc.

They only cost $20-$40, if it doesn't work you can use it to squeeze orange juice.

 

[turboglenn]

When you say off the map as far as airflow do you mean the motor wont allow any more air to be forced in so the turbo surges. I know when surging happens just not really the exact cause of it.

yea, it's basically moving more air than the motor will take, so it backs up then overflows so to speak, back out of the compressor inlet hole causing the shaft/wheels to slow or stop suddenly which puts major loads on all the turbo's components. It's about the same as not having a blow off valve and shutting the throttle down hard from high boost.

There's quite a bit more to it than that but that's teh simplest way i can explain or even think of it.

 

[airmail96]

I think everytime I mention my car my wife says when the hell are you going to sell that thing .

 

[dsm-onster]

Ok, well I am telling you from actual experience that it worked on all three turbo cars I have had contact with that had bad surge. You SAY it won't work but haven't tried it, I TELL you it will work because I've done it now on three turbo cars.

Most people base their opinions of the Tornado on those internet posts that dog the product because of the HP and MPG claims. I'm telling you to get it to stop compressor surge, not that it'll make 20hp and give you 2mpg better fuel mileage.

If you want more proof, check out the Grand National boards, they are doing it and if they are willing to try it, then anyone is. This crowd hates blow offs etc.

They only cost $20-$40, if it doesn't work you can use it to squeeze orange juice.

That is because you are giving the compressor a restriction. Thus limiting the compressor flow at low engine flow. This is what Map Width Enhancement does. However, the difference with MWE is that at high flows there is no loss in compressor flow. The "tornado" is still blocking the inlet helix shape of airflow for all angles but the angle of the tornado.

Air or other fluid naturally spirals when moving into a hole. Look at a drain for a moment. Adding something to "encourage" the spiral will just add "viscous resistance". There is no reason to limit the helical shape of the air entering the compressor. It changes as compressor rpm changes. Also, in a naturally asperated engine, the helical shape (vortex) changes with changes in air particle velocity.

And more than a few have sucked their tornado into their compressor ruining their turbo. That is proof there's a pressure drop and a loss in overall flow by the compressor.

For free, you can vent boost into the atmosphere and just tune the leak out. This will accomplish the same thing: limit peak flow and prevent compressor surge.

The GN guys that do it don't go fast when they max out their compressor.

 

[Car Cannibal]

A trusted, long time and extremely knowledgeable GN board member ran weeks of data logging and his data doesn't back up your theory. This restriction spooled up faster from 7psi on and the top end had no data showing any loss of flow or need to alter fueling.

I haven't heard of any turbo damage other than your post and I know of probably 20 users or more but it's possible.

It'll stop surging, if you want to try it, it works.

 

[dsm-onster]

Popular Mechanics verified a loss in power with an n/a engine by more than 10%. Couple that to the findings that compressor surge goes away, what would anyone think is happening?

If this GN owner was not running the compressor to it's absolute limit, then of course he would notice no difference. Unlike an n/a application which has no control over manifold pressure, the compressor is allowed to spin harder by the wastegate actuator, since it takes more compressor speed to maintain a certain pressure where the compressor inlet is more restricted. Therefore, of course it will inhibit surge. It could be an option to those who are getting surge now. But so could another choice in a compressor, a larger compressor housing, cam timing tweeks, or a MWE groove or holes. Even putting a hole in your charge pipes can prevent surge, and it's free. Larger compressor housings, cam timing readjustment, and MWE is proven to GAIN peak airflow potential.

 

[4Motion4g63]

My Wife Always Makes the Comment " Ohh You about to go Rub on that Car Some More, You never rub on me like that" Maybe I would more if she didnt So much....
Just before I go to work on it or something.....
And I always get the "I dont Know how come you got to have 3 Cars!"
Because I have A 91 AWD, 93 1.8 eclipse ( The Daily ) and her 96 Accord....
Funny how she counts her car when counting.....

I keep telling her, that the AWD is a toy, And not to be depended on for A to B stuff....
But she thinks I am Selfish, ohh well cant be If Im around her without a hobby

 

[flyboy346205]

All this sounds amazingly familiar. My car helped me pick up three chicks... At the same time it lost those same three chicks when they realized how much I work on it. Well I guess the world has to turn somehow right? And yes, you fix one thing and another breaks. That's another turn of the world too...