upgrade from the evo 3..which turbo for low 11's?

[420a-t]

I've been looking for a turbo upgrade from the evo 3 16g and want to see what would get me deep into the 11's. I have an auto car, so I'll probably shift around 7000-7500k. I'll be getting a new built tranny with a 4000k stall torque converter in it, as well as a JMF intake mani and a new head with bc 272's. I can get good deals on a bullseye 60-1 and an fp3575. How do the two compare? Spool times, more efficent, etc. If anyone could shed some light into these turbo's, or any that would be good for low 11's and spool before 4000k, that would be awesome. Thanks.

 

[NATAS]

60-1 is way better suited for 11 second runs (or better). The 3575 is significantly larger all around and IMO is overkill for 11 second passes. You have to spend more cash getting the 3575 to bolt up and on the turbo itself too. You want to get away with the smallest turbo possible for your goals, not the largest.

 

[Jst4Cyl]

60-1 is way better suited for 11 second runs (or better). The 3575 is significantly larger all around and IMO is overkill for 11 second passes. You have to spend more cash getting the 3575 to bolt up and on the turbo itself too. You want to get away with the smallest turbo possible for your goals, not the largest.

Well I agee with some of these things such as:

FP3575 is overkill for 11 second passes.

You have to spend more cash getting the 3575 to bolt up and on the turbo itself too

However, the last part contradicts with what you first started talking about (efficiency).

IMO, it is not just about being able to acheive it. While an EVO III can get you 11 sec passes I believe that it isn't the best answer. I would rather choose the parts that are designed to use for my goals and them still be efficient.

Personally, I am a 50 trim kinda guy. I want to be able to run mid to high 11 on pump gas. And a low 11 on a pump/meth mix. From the sounds of your post I think something like a 50 trim, 57 trim, 60 trim are going to be an efficent and wise choice. Now, if you are later on looking for a 10 second pass then go for something like the 30r,35r, or FP 3065. I'm well aware that there are other ways of getting an 11 sec timeslip but I'd rather have room for growth.

BTW, I am by no means suggesting that you go get some laggy turbo that is way out your goals. The FP 3575 is a 750 hp capable turbo and I don't see the point in something like that unless you are looking for 9 sec passes

If you wish to stay bolt on I say 35r if you don't care to drop some money go 3065.

 

[420a-t]

Thanks guys, and yes, I would love to get a turbo and not HAVE to upgrade in order to go a little faster than that. My ultimate goal for this car is 10's, but I want to take it a little easier on it than that this coming year, seeing that I still have a stock bottom end.

The guy who is selling the fp turbo is going to give me a manifold with it too (not a cheap-o ebay one either) but, I would still have the o2 housing part to deal with. So, mabye something like a 60 trim, or 60-1 could get me deep into the 11's, possibly high 10's? And yeah, I know my evo3 could make it into the 11's, but I want a turbo I can grow with and can handle power, but I want something that spools before 7000rpm's . Do you guys have any more turbo opinions along these lines? Thanks again.

 

[TimG]

60-1 is the turbo you want.

It's a common misconception that a 60 trim is better then the a 50 trim. The trim is just a calculation of the compressors inducer and exducer as a ratio which is squared. If you increase your inducer size but don't compensate exducer wise, you will have a higher tendancy to surge under load/boost.

Stick with what is proven and boogies. T-3 T04S 60-1 is my opinion.

 

[brute]

I think the 60-1 is too big for your uses. There's no sense in getting extra lag when achieving the same goal. My vote goes for a 50-trim for 11's and 30r if you want 10's.

 

[turboglenn]

Just wonering why no one is recomending the 57 trim in this thread? That turbo would get you deep into the 11's. I would like to hear what other people have to say about that turbo ( as that's what i run ). It tends to surge at low loads but i want to know how it compares to the 50 trim in real world scenarios ( i know what teh maps show)

I know that the 57 trim produces the power you'd need for 11's first hand, as i get the MPH's for 11's on just 19 PSI and a decent tune.

I haven't been in a 4g63 car with a 50 trim, so i'm kind of wondering what it's spool times look like. I know what a 60-1 does and i myself am trying to decide if i want to change to a 60-1 or actually downsize to a 50 trim with a smaller turbine for faster spool.

I hpe this isn't seeming like a thread jack, but i feel the info i need would also help the OP as well.

 

[420a-t]

Thanks for all the imput. How would a 60-1 mitsu-style housing compare straight across to the t3-style? I would go with a 50-trim, but I've done a lot of reading and it seems like everyone who's gone from the evo3 to that can hardly tell a difference. I want something that I can grow with, but I also want one that can spool around or before 4000rpm on a 2.0, since that's what my torque converter stall will be at (4000-4200). Also, do any of the slowboyracing turbo's compare with any of these? Also, keep in mind that I'll be shifting around 7000-7500

brute, do you think I could go with the 60-1, and get the best of both worlds right now, 11's, and eventually, 10's? Or would it be best to make up my mind what I want and choose smaller or bigger?
This coming year, I'm going for 11's, then hopefully 10's 2 or 3 years from now.

 

[chavez408]

BR20g

 

[brute]

Thanks for all the imput. How would a 60-1 mitsu-style housing compare straight across to the t3-style? I would go with a 50-trim, but I've done a lot of reading and it seems like everyone who's gone from the evo3 to that can hardly tell a difference. I want something that I can grow with, but I also want one that can spool around or before 4000rpm on a 2.0, since that's what my torque converter stall will be at (4000-4200). Also, do any of the slowboyracing turbo's compare with any of these? Also, keep in mind that I'll be shifting around 7000-7500

brute, do you think I could go with the 60-1, and get the best of both worlds right now, 11's, and eventually, 10's? Or would it be best to make up my mind what I want and choose smaller or bigger?
This coming year, I'm going for 11's, then hopefully 10's 2 or 3 years from now.

I hate to break it to you, but you're not going to be able to run 10's with a turbo that is fully spooled at or before 4000rpm. Due to the large turbos' lag, there are two solutions: stroker or high-rev. With the larger displacement, you can have more torque and spool the larger turbo a bit quicker. And with the higher redline, the turbo will still spool late, but you will be revving higher, thus keeping your powerband relatively long.

As far as the 50-trim vs. E316G, I don't see how they did not notice a difference; as far as ratings, the 50-trim is like 8lbs/min more. In terms of real world experience, people have gotten about 100 more whp with the 50-trim. I still think the 60-1 is too big for you, but it'll be hard to achieve your goals with the restrictions you've put forth.

10's with 2.0L, 7000rpm redline, spool before 4000rpm is just not going to happen unless you're planning other stuff like E85, meth injection, nitrous, etc.

 

[420a-t]

Thanks, brute. Before I could get my hands on a 60-1, I wanted to go with the 50-trim, but I don't want to upgrade again the year after. I know there are a lot of determining factors around spool time, but is there any way I could get a guestimate for any turbo' that spool around 4000rpm? Would the 60-1 on a 2.0l? Or would I see bigger gains with a 50-trim (or a little bigger) since I'm not revving out to 8500rpm?

And I am running meth, if that changes anything. Thanks

 

[dsm-onster]

Thanks, brute. Before I could get my hands on a 60-1, I wanted to go with the 50-trim, but I don't want to upgrade again the year after. I know there are a lot of determining factors around spool time, but is there any way I could get a guestimate for any turbo' that spool around 4000rpm? Would the 60-1 on a 2.0l? Or would I see bigger gains with a 50-trim (or a little bigger) since I'm not revving out to 8500rpm?

And I am running meth, if that changes anything. Thanks

Brute is pointing you in the right direction.

Any t3 stage 3 turbo or bigger will fit the bill. My BEP housing t3 stage 3 turbine w/ a 60-1 spooled around 4K w, my fp2Xs. . . stock cams are better for quick spool. But who wants such a restriction for such a large compressor? Then again, who couples a small BEP housing t3 stage 3 turbine w/ a 60-1?

. . . Point is, you don't need a turbo that spools by 4K to reach your goal and have a little room to grow. A simple50 trim will do it. I neve realized the potential of my compressor because my fast spooling turbine was a HUGE restriction at such a level. But thissame turbine is PERFECT for your goal. It flows plenty for the hp neccesary to delve deep into the 11s.

If you want a turbo that 'you don't want to upgrade in a year', then look at the hotsde not the cold side. . .And accept a 4500rpm spool

 

[v2ner]

50-trims are great for 11s but not 10s (for the average DSMer). Not much of a jump from a 16G...you'll probably be disappointed. Maybe you should research more and lay the groundwork for a 10sec setup.

60-1...spool? Maybe 15psi around 4k RPMs but definitely not 27psi. Get what I mean? It is also harder to go from -12 (considering you have upped cams) to 15psi than from 15 to 27psi.

 

[dsm-onster]

50-trims are great for 11s but not 10s (for the average DSMer). Not much of a jump from a 16G...you'll probably be disappointed. Maybe you should research more and lay the groundwork for a 10sec setup.

60-1...spool? Maybe 15psi around 4k RPMs but definitely not 27psi. Get what I mean? It is also harder to go from -12 (considering you have upped cams) to 15psi than from 15 to 27psi.

22psi by 3900 rpms w/ my 60-1.

 

[motomattxxx]

Get a nice ball bearing center section whatever you do.

 

[brute]

As long as we're talking about the 60-1 compressor, why has no one offered the 35r to the table? Earlier in the topic, a few people said the FP3575 was way too big for the goals of the OP. However, the 35r compressor wheel actually flows a slight amount less than the 60-1. Sometimes, people just don't understand how big it really is!

Dsm-onster and I agree on a lot of things, and the turbine being the restriction is one of them. It's not too hard to pick a compressor, but since there's so many available turbines on the market these days, you can pretty much get whatever you want. So when picking, you're going to need to sacrifice lag for timeslips, it's just that simple.

Another thing to look at (in my opinion) is age of the wheel design. All the common 50- and 57-trims, 60-1's, 62-1's, etc. are all pretty old wheel designs. Stuff like Garrett's GT series and the extended tip S2xx and S3xx series are nearly cutting edge with various little tweaks for better efficiency and characteristics here and there. Have you looked into the S256 or S258? People have been getting insane results with them and they're just a few hundred more than an elder (read outdated) wheel.

That few hundred now will seem like nothing when you get too small a turbo and have to drop another $800 or more for a bigger one!

 

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

50-trims are great for 11s but not 10s (for the average DSMer). Not much of a jump from a 16G...you'll probably be disappointed. Maybe you should research more and lay the groundwork for a 10sec setup.

60-1...spool? Maybe 15psi around 4k RPMs but definitely not 27psi. Get what I mean? It is also harder to go from -12 (considering you have upped cams) to 15psi than from 15 to 27psi.

How is the above statement even close to being correct? If you were at-12in hg and you had to go to your number of 27psi that would be quicker than going from -15in hg to 27psi.Most cars however are more in the -17 to -20in hg with stock cams . Thats not the reason cars with cams spool slower though. Its a bit more complex than that. Try not to spread misinformation your above thoery has no facts at all and us here at dsmtuners take that very seriously.

No disrespect to you just trying to keep factual information around.



Derek

 

[2gGSX]

As long as we're talking about the 60-1 compressor, why has no one offered the 35r to the table? Earlier in the topic, a few people said the FP3575 was way too big for the goals of the OP. However, the 35r compressor wheel actually flows a slight amount less than the 60-1. Sometimes, people just don't understand how big it really is!

Dsm-onster and I agree on a lot of things, and the turbine being the restriction is one of them. It's not too hard to pick a compressor, but since there's so many available turbines on the market these days, you can pretty much get whatever you want. So when picking, you're going to need to sacrifice lag for timeslips, it's just that simple.

Another thing to look at (in my opinion) is age of the wheel design. All the common 50- and 57-trims, 60-1's, 62-1's, etc. are all pretty old wheel designs. Stuff like Garrett's GT series and the extended tip S2xx and S3xx series are nearly cutting edge with various little tweaks for better efficiency and characteristics here and there. Have you looked into the S256 or S258? People have been getting insane results with them and they're just a few hundred more than an elder (read outdated) wheel.

That few hundred now will seem like nothing when you get too small a turbo and have to drop another $800 or more for a bigger one!

While the 60-1 map (http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t04b-60-1.gif) looks like it has more airflow than a GT35R (TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog), that statement isn't exactly correct. You'll notice that the 60-1 map shows the wheel up to ~120,000 RPM. The 35R map peaks at ~111,000 RPM. The "difference" in the maps is most likely due to the fact that the 60-1 map is shown to a "lower efficiency island cut-off". I can all but guarantee you that the 35R (61mm) wheel is making the same airflow with higher efficiency.

Alongside the Borg-Warner offerings, you can also wait for PTE to come out with their "boosted" versions of the current turbos. I was flipping through a ricer magazine while waiting for my girlfriend to get her coffee and noticed that they had a picture of one. It looked like it had a "map enhancement groove" equipped compressor housing. If Garrett is indeed adding this technology on to their current offerings (or maybe PTE is making mutt turbos), then you the thought of a ball-bearing S256 equivalent (or even bigger) may come to fruition.

How is the above statement even close to being correct? If you were at-12in hg and you had to go to your number of 27psi that would be quicker than going from -15in hg to 27psi.Most cars however are more in the -17 to -20in hg with stock cams . Thats not the reason cars with cams spool slower though. Its a bit more complex than that. Try not to spread misinformation your above thoery has no facts at all and us here at dsmtuners take that very seriously.

No disrespect to you just trying to keep factual information around.



Derek

In all honesty, the shift from vac to boost happens nearly instantaneous at any reasonable RPM. The quick and dirty explanation for why cams slow spool is that because (most) people buy cams for more top end power, these cams shift the engine's volumetric efficiency towards the top end of the powerband. Lower VE = less air in and out of the engine, which yields slower spool on the bottom end.

 

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

While the 60-1 map (http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t04b-60-1.gif) looks like it has more airflow than a GT35R (TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog), that statement isn't exactly correct. You'll notice that the 60-1 map shows the wheel up to ~120,000 RPM. The 35R map peaks at ~111,000 RPM. The "difference" in the maps is most likely due to the fact that the 60-1 map is shown to a "lower efficiency island cut-off". I can all but guarantee you that the 35R (61mm) wheel is making the same airflow with higher efficiency.

Alongside the Borg-Warner offerings, you can also wait for PTE to come out with their "boosted" versions of the current turbos. I was flipping through a ricer magazine while waiting for my girlfriend to get her coffee and noticed that they had a picture of one. It looked like it had a "map enhancement groove" equipped compressor housing. If Garrett is indeed adding this technology on to their current offerings (or maybe PTE is making mutt turbos), then you the thought of a ball-bearing S256 equivalent (or even bigger) may come to fruition.



In all honesty, the shift from vac to boost happens nearly instantaneous at any reasonable RPM. The quick and dirty explanation for why cams slow spool is that because (most) people buy cams for more top end power, these cams shift the engine's volumetric efficiency towards the top end of the powerband. Lower VE = less air in and out of the engine, which yields slower spool on the bottom end.

Which I agree with sort of. Why are you quoting me I said what your saying just didn't go into detail about it. Not to mention theres much more that plays into it then your dirty explanation. Also I know that vac to boost happens very quick and you really can't measure it. I was using his examples as a reference to show more what he was talking about.

Derek

 

[dsm-onster]

While the 60-1 map (http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t04b-60-1.gif) looks like it has more airflow than a GT35R (TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog), that statement isn't exactly correct. You'll notice that the 60-1 map shows the wheel up to ~120,000 RPM. The 35R map peaks at ~111,000 RPM. The "difference" in the maps is most likely due to the fact that the 60-1 map is shown to a "lower efficiency island cut-off". I can all but guarantee you that the 35R (61mm) wheel is making the same airflow with higher efficiency.

Note that there is no map for the 60-1 turbos we commonly use (e-cover). So referencing that compressor map can lead to vague predictions. Especially with respect to efficiency island shape.

. . .Not to mention theres much more that plays into it then your dirty explanation. Also I know that vac to boost happens very quick and you really can't measure it. I was using his examples as a reference to show more what he was talking about.

No, there's not much more than that for why a cam upgrade can slow spool. You could elaborate on what alters the VE, but still it's just VE that affects spool when cams are changed.

How much of a deal are you getting for either of these turbos?

 

[turboglenn]

Note that there is no map for the 60-1 turbos we commonly use (e-cover). So referencing that compressor map can lead to vague predictions. Especially with respect to efficiency island shape.


?

Just an FYI.. I have a compressor map for a 60-1 in an O4E housing if anyone wants me to scan it in just say so.

 

[2gGSX]

Which I agree with sort of. Why are you quoting me I said what your saying just didn't go into detail about it. Not to mention theres much more that plays into it then your dirty explanation. Also I know that vac to boost happens very quick and you really can't measure it. I was using his examples as a reference to show more what he was talking about.

Derek

I quoted you to reference your post is all. If my explanation is so "dirty", then by all means, give me the squeaky clean version of it.

Note that there is no map for the 60-1 turbos we commonly use (e-cover). So referencing that compressor map can lead to vague predictions. Especially with respect to efficiency island shape.


No, there's not much more than that for why a cam upgrade can slow spool. You could elaborate on what alters the VE, but still it's just VE that affects spool when cams are changed.

How much of a deal are you getting for either of these turbos?

I agree with you that the cover should make a difference, but only Glen will be able to show us just how much it makes. On the other hand, the SC61/GT35 wheel is simply bigger. Based on that (assuming that Garret didn't purposely shaft the 61mm wheel for some reason), and the general trend of the bigger wheels having a higher choke airflow, it would follow that the 61 wheel would flow more than the 60. This is all here-say though, since we don't have the maps (yet).

Just an FYI.. I have a compressor map for a 60-1 in an O4E housing if anyone wants me to scan it in just say so.

Please do.

 

[420a-t]

[
How much of a deal are you getting for either of these turbos?[/QUOTE]

I could get the 3575 for $900-$1000. It's only been primed, and that price includes the exhaust manifold and gaskets. I'm not sure on the 60-1 though. From what I've been reading (and thanks a ton for the responses) The gt35 and 60-1 have about the same spool charcheristics, except top end. Is there anything else that is a Mitsu housing that would get the job done? I'm just keeping my options open and looking at all the possibles. Thanks

 

[dsm-onster]

I could get the 3575 for $900-$1000. It's only been primed, and that price includes the exhaust manifold and gaskets. I'm not sure on the 60-1 though. From what I've been reading (and thanks a ton for the responses) The gt35 and 60-1 have about the same spool charcheristics, except top end. Is there anything else that is a Mitsu housing that would get the job done? I'm just keeping my options open and looking at all the possibles. Thanks

An hx40 in a bep housing.

Just an FYI.. I have a compressor map for a 60-1 in an O4E housing if anyone wants me to scan it in just say so.

Please!

 

[420a-t]

What about an hx30? I have one of those available to me too. It even has the bullseye turbine housing on it already.