T25 hit the crapper... now, EVO 3 16G or 50 trim???

[95CarbonEclipse]

Well, after the smoke cleared (literally) I realized that the time has come to quick dickin' around and finally get into this whole modding brew-ha-ha. Yup, my T25 is nothing more then a fancy, exhaust powered, smoke bomb. I'm about to tow my 2g down to English Racing in Vancouver, WA but before I get down there I was hoping to brush up on my turbo knowledge.

Mind you, I know jack sheet right now. I've read a few technical threads about comp. housings, a/r ratio's, garrets and mitsu's... but i'm still pretty green on the whole thing. I've read that the 50 trim is the "pump gas king" but the EvoIII B16G has gotten great reviews. So....

Here's my specs: BONE ASS STOCK (read my profile) and in need of a new turbo.
Here's my goals: 90% street 10% track... shooting for an eventual 450ish HP.

Should I:

A) Replace with a another used T25 for $100 and save the rest of my budget on supporting mods in prep for a killer turbo down the road?
B) Replace with a rebuilt/used 14b and save some cash (mind you I'm having Lucas do a timing belt, water pump job while he has it) to spend in supporting mods?
C) Have English Racing strap on a EVOIII complete with porting and polishing of the exhaust mani and o2 housing to my otherwise stock motor/intercooler?
D) Go all out, get the 50 trim and tone it WAY down until I add on the supporting mods down the road?

 

[Chuck_3]

If your goal is 450hp or so I would just put another used T25 on there until you can afford all the supporting mods to go with a bigger turbo.

 

[diablos991]

It seems like option A is the only reasonable option. Especially if you would like to avoid damaging things in the process.

Just replace your turbo with another T-25 and start getting those supporting mods. You will learn alot on the way, and if you keep doing your research; you will have a much better idea of your goals and how to get there when the time comes.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

No love for the 14b?? I'm actually surprised at these first couple of answers... I thought for sure people would suggest replacing the T25 with at least a 14b. I mean, I understand the importance of supporting mods, don't get me wrong, i'm in NO RUSH. But I thought the 14b would be a nice light upgrade to the T25... hell, I should still have some cash to get a FMIC, maybe a new fuel pump, (I'm actually in the process of a getting a datalogger already).

I appreciate the input... and keep it coming!!

 

[stockfornow]

I would say 450 at the wheels, is plenty. But a 16G.... Well, same exhaust manifold and so on... it will fit better. Down the road, once you get all the supporting mods, FMIC, fuel, tuning, clutch... It will make plenty of power for a DD

 

[diablos991]

The problem that I have with the 14b is that you are new to the whole tuning thing.

With a 14b you still need the required upgrades to support the turbo. You especially need a boost controller and a data logger. Plus, you have to know how to read the logger and what to look for; while also knowing how to correct the problems that you find. That is why I feel that the T-25 is a much more ideal solution for you right now.

If you just swap a 14b without any mods then you are asking for trouble.
Again, I suggest that the upgrade path on this site is followed. There has been 18 years of people modifying these cars and that path is the path that has been taken as commonplace. I would imagine that it is widely accepted for a reason.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

Option A sound right. Just get the T-25 and then work your way up to the 50 Trim so its not a huge information overload if you just jump straight to the 50 Trim. Learning everything there is to know about a DSM from a bigger turbo upgrade is a lot of info to get used to and remember. So I say get all the supporting mods first. And then when you get that 50 Trim (because a 16G of any variant is too small for 450whp)...you'll know what you are doing and immediately have fun.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

The problem that I have with the 14b is that you are new to the whole tuning thing.

With a 14b you still need the required upgrades to support the turbo. You especially need a boost controller and a data logger. Plus, you have to know how to read the logger and what to look for; while also knowing how to correct the problems that you find. That is why I feel that the T-25 is a much more ideal solution for you right now.

If you just swap a 14b without any mods then you are asking for trouble.
Again, I suggest that the upgrade path on this site is followed. There has been 18 years of people modifying these cars and that path is the path that has been taken as commonplace. I would imagine that it is widely accepted for a reason.

I agree... I'm ordering a Datalogger as we speak (I just can't seem to win one of these damn Palm PDA auctions!) and I do already have a MBC with Boost gauge and a Type S BOV.

Although new to the tuning world, I can't see how having a turbo from a stock 1g 4g63 is going to be a huge mod that would require a lot of tuning knowledge. Not to mention, I gotta start somewhere.

On the other hand (i like to keep an open mind), Lucas at English Racing asked me if I wanted to upgrade (mentioned EVOIII with porting to help w/ creep) or stick with the stock T25. He never mentioned the 14b as an alternative and I'm wondering if there's a specfic reason why he didn't mention it...?

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

And then when you get that 50 Trim (because a 16G of any variant is too small for 450whp)...

Well, at least I know that the turbo I'm ultimately shooting for is the 50 trim and NOT a badass B16G. If I'm hearing you guys correctly, keep it moderate for now... and in this order: get the Pocketlogger> a nice FMIC> Upgraded fuel pump (would i need two 255's inline to support a 50 trim??)> Injectors (650's??)> Tuning software> Exhaust> O2 Houseing> Exaust Manifold > > > 50 TRIM!! ..? Just curious as to what I should blow my money on first.

Eh... I should probably throw a clutch somewhere in there.

 

[turbosax2]

Well, at least I know that the turbo I'm ultimately shooting for is the 50 trim and NOT a badass B16G. If I'm hearing you guys correctly, keep it moderate for now... and in this order: get the Pocketlogger> a nice FMIC> Upgraded fuel pump (would i need two 255's inline to support a 50 trim??)> Injectors (650's??)> Tuning software> Exhaust> O2 Houseing> Exaust Manifold > > > 50 TRIM!! ..? Just curious as to what I should blow my money on first.

Eh... I should probably throw a clutch somewhere in there.

Go with bigger injectors (like 1000's or 1150's) if you get tuning software capable of tuning them (like DSMLink or AEM EMS).

 

[Chuck_3]

One fuel pump is enough for a 50. If you go with the 255 you will need a regulator as well. You will definitely need a clutch. Look into dsmlink and a wideband for tuning and you can get some bigger injectors like mentioned above. If you're on a budget you can keep your stock manifold and port it yourself.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

Go with bigger injectors (like 1000's or 1150's) if you get tuning software capable of tuning them (like DSMLink or AEM EMS).

Really? That big?

 

[whiteflash]

I have a t25 i'll sell you, does have some shaft play but i'll let it go for cheap, but ran great before i upgraded, and i live in vancouver, wa

*but if i were you i would try and find a 14b, makes no sense to go back to a t25.....

 

[Chuck_3]

Really? That big?

You have that option with dsmlink and if you plan to go beyond 450hp you won't have to upgrade your injectors again. You would be fine with some 850's with link.

 

[zippyshoe]

Well, at least I know that the turbo I'm ultimately shooting for is the 50 trim and NOT a badass B16G. If I'm hearing you guys correctly, keep it moderate for now... and in this order: get the Pocketlogger> a nice FMIC> Upgraded fuel pump (would i need two 255's inline to support a 50 trim??)> Injectors (650's??)> Tuning software> Exhaust> O2 Houseing> Exaust Manifold > > > 50 TRIM!! ..? Just curious as to what I should blow my money on first.

Eh... I should probably throw a clutch somewhere in there.

As far as the sequence of events for upgrading, I would follow the 2g upgrade path found here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/sub.php?page=2gtupgrades. This guide demonstrates that there are several steps that should be performed before upgrading the turbo such as minimizing air restrictions at the intake and exhaust paths, upgading the BOV, etc. Hope this helps.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

If I'm hearing you guys correctly, keep it moderate for now...

Yes keep it moderate. This is the reason many DSM owners go into some kind of debt. They go out and blow all their money on a big turbo for all that high HP they want. But then once it is on the car they realize that they need a bunch of other things to actually have it running proper. So then in their quest for HP they go out and buy more things with their non existent money so they can have their power. So go moderate, and then save money like a squirrel saves nuts in fall . (Even pack it in your cheeks if you cant keep it safe )

Eh... I should probably throw a clutch somewhere in there.

Indeed...

 

[DGajre777]

I vote for another T25 until you can get all your supporting mods in place.

 

[turbosax2]

Really? That big?

You have that option with dsmlink and if you plan to go beyond 450hp you won't have to upgrade your injectors again. You would be fine with some 850's with link.

http://dsmlink.com/ordering-eprom.html

Go to that site, find the drop down menu for injectors and you can see all the different options DSMLink has. The price difference between injectors is relatively small so upgrade once and then never worry about having to upgrade again!

 

[run-4-cover]

I'm willing to bet all the people saying to go back to a T25 aren't even making 300whp yet....tuning is not black magic....why would you waste money on another T25....especially if you have to pay someone to change it.....at the very minimum go with a 14b, but again, I ask why do that when you already know what you want....just get the 50 trim and be done with it, no need for doing things 3 times.

Common sense here....if you are still on stock injectors and stock fuel pump, then just keep the boost turned down until you upgrade....since your bone stock, your very first mod after the turbo should be a 3" (or larger) exhaust. These clowns have been brainwashed into thinking your car is going to blow-up if you don't follow the upgrade charts....that crap is for idiots with no common sense, if you don't have enough common sense to know that 450cc injectors won't support a 50trim on 20psi of boost, then you deserve to put a rod through the side of your block!

Ask yourself this, how much HP will stock injectors/fuel pump, blah,blah,blah, support?...lets say it's ~220whp....hmmmm...I wonder how much HP a 50trim makes at 10psi...or maybe 8psi.....is 220whp from a 50trim worse than 220whp from a T25?

And for the clowns talking about not upgrading to a 14b.....isn't that the stock turbo on a 1st gen?.... please ask yourself what "upgrades" (other than the obvious line changes on the turbo itself) would you have to do to a 2nd gen, to get to 1st gen level......survey sez.....nothing!!!! But then again, if your going through all that trouble, why not just do it once, a 14b isn't an upgrade in any way, shape or form.....they fall off horribly above 5500rpm's, so you'll be looking for more power pretty soon there after.

Now, I'm assuming money isn't an issue for you, because your talking about a 50trim....I say get the bare minimum it takes to get the 50trim on and working.....then follow this LOGICAL step-by-step below.....sometimes people need to think outside the box

1.) cat back *with provisions to add a 3" downpipe later*
2.) down pipe and highflow cat/test pipe
3.) 255 fuel pump
4.) injectors and something to control them (safc, dsm-link, tuned ecu...etc)
5.) FMIC and piping
....after that, get whatever odds and ends you need to finish off your build and safely attain your HP goal, you can add FPR, cams, SMIM, built bottom end, ....whatever....

....those are what I feel are the bare essentials to make that 50trim work, I purposely left out intake and clutch and other stuff, because you can add those at anytime.....if you have a decent clutch now, and depending on how long it took you to complete the list, your stock clutch should still be fine, because you weren't beating on the car untuned, were you?

there you go....enjoy! ....now aren't you happy you didn't have to pay someone to swap your turbos twice, or three times if you put a 14b on there...that saved you enough money to buy a fuelpump and injectors if you shop wisely.

 

[Chuck_3]

I'm willing to bet all the people saying to go back to a T25 aren't even making 300whp

How much would you like to bet?

Now, I'm assuming money isn't an issue for you, because your talking about a 50trim....I say get the bare minimum it takes to get the 50trim on and working.....

It doesn't sound like he has any money for supporting mods.

 

[run-4-cover]

The problem that I have with the 14b is that you are new to the whole tuning thing.

With a 14b you still need the required upgrades to support the turbo. You especially need a boost controller and a data logger. Plus, you have to know how to read the logger and what to look for; while also knowing how to correct the problems that you find. That is why I feel that the T-25 is a much more ideal solution for you right now.

If you just swap a 14b without any mods then you are asking for trouble.
Again, I suggest that the upgrade path on this site is followed. There has been 18 years of people modifying these cars and that path is the path that has been taken as commonplace. I would imagine that it is widely accepted for a reason.

please tell me what the"required" mods are for a 14b to be run on a 2nd gen....especially since it came off a 1st gen? hmmmm...they're both 4G63T's, both have 450cc injectors(If I remember correct), etc.... how much boost will a 14b make if you connect the wastegate lines to the solenoid boost controller on a 2nd gen?

what path do you speak of? the only path that's commonplace is yall making someone rich by following those upgrade paths, then preaching it as gospel.....don't get me wrong, they are good SUGGESTIONS to attaining a desired HP level, but in no way are they engraved in stone methods......they are more for people with no common sense.

I wonder what you would say if you laid eyes on my stock everything (except for the fuel pump and a 2.5" crush bent turbo-back exhaust) 1st gen gs-t with a ported and clipped tdo5h-18g on it @ 18 -20psi? guess you would tell me that it was on borrowed time, huh? too bad my car didn't read that part of the Holy upgrade chart to know that it wasn't supposed to run 3 years like that Oh wait! it gets better! because I skipped all that BS this and that, and went straight to web cams546/547's....what an idiot I was, huh?....tell that to my wallet

*Disclaimer* I don't reccomend anyone try what I done, because I'm not going to be responsible for you grenading your engine, because your an idiot....I done one simple tweak to my car to run it like that, and I'm not mentioning what it was......follow the upgrade charts the vendors give yall

 

[run-4-cover]

How much would you like to bet?



It doesn't sound like he has any money for supporting mods.

how do you intend to prove to me that you have 300+whp? WTF

If he doesn't have money for mods, but just enough to get the 50trim and make the car run, then thats what he should do.....put the 50trim on....mod later....a manual boost controller cost $50....if thats too much, use the other manual boost controller under your right foot

 

[Chuck_3]

I really don't think it matters if he gets a 14b or a T25. He needs something because he said his turbo is shit. His goal is 450hp so either one of those are gonna get replaced anyways once he is ready and has his supporting mods.

 

[Chuck_3]

how do you intend to prove to me that you have 300+whp? WTF

If he doesn't have money for mods, but just enough to get the 50trim and make the car run, then thats what he should do.....put the 50trim on....mod later....a manual boost controller cost $50....if thats too much, use the other manual boost controller under your right foot

Look at my mod list. That should be enough for you.

Why put a 50 trim on a completely stock car and turn the boost down? He's gonna want more boost and gonna end up turning the up boost.

He just needs something because his T25 took a shit. Do the supporting mods first until you're ready for a turbo.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

If he doesn't have money for mods, but just enough to get the 50trim and make the car run, then thats what he should do.....put the 50trim on....mod later....a manual boost controller cost $50....if thats too much, use the other manual boost controller under your right foot

While your train of thought is on par with some of the DSMers out there, did you take a moment to realize that he has a bone stock 2g and it requires more than just buying a turbo to get a 50 trim or even a 16G running in his car? Did you take into account that he may need a J pipe for his 16G or SMIC/FMIC piping for his 50 trim, or even an install kit for the new turbo?

While I'm quite confident that I should be at least making over 300 awhp, I for one also vote for him to replace his stock t25 with yet another t25 (albeit, $100 is a lot of money for a t25). All in all it just makes sense. Why build an engine/goals around a turbo, when you're supposed to buy a turbo around the engine/goal?

We're all glad that you can run a 14B or whatever with your DSM, but truth of the matter is that it's NOT SMART to buy a gigantic turbo and run 10 psi on it. It's basically buying a 800 dollar turbo that does the same job a $50 t25 does.

p.s., the "vendor BS upgrade path" isn't made by vendors, it is a guide made for dsmers, by dsmers.