Vtrim turbo took a shit

[mattspyder]

Well Bullseye turbos suck, Ive only put about 1000 miles on my vtrim and it took a shit on me already. The performance shop called me and told me its got really bad shaft play. it touches the side walls.

so now my question is what turbo to put on there.
my block will consist of (head)-264-272 camshafts, unorthodox camgears, greddy timing belt, (block)-oh yeah the block is a 6 bolt ,arias pistons, eagle hbeam rods, mitsubishi metal hg, balance shaft removal, arp hardware.
act 2100 clutch kit w/ fidanza flywheel
my fuel system is 650cc injectors, 190pump,
I have a safc II with palm pilot with packetlogger software.

Now what turbo would be good for my setup, this is a fwd, I want to run around 20psi and they will tune it around 300hp. probably more.
I would like to go with a evo III big 16g and the guy said that would be downsizing, but I have heard nothing but good things about that turbo.

Can someone give me some advice.
thanks

 

[wvturbo2]

Evo3 would be a nice turbo. I'm buying a sm5031e tomorrow. I was looking at V-trim, but was swayed so I'll go with a nice PTE 50 trim

 

[mattspyder]

it is a great turbo for the price, I really cant afford to go all out otherwise I would. I dont plan on bringing my car to the track just a daily driver around town in the summer.

 

[wvturbo2]

Evo3 16g is a great daily driver and can hold its share of boost and you could add race gas for track if you wanted. It'd be a mean car and they are def affordable turbos

 

[mattspyder]

right on, any other input out there.

 

[Calan]

All my research for a weekend/daily driver/mustang killer points to an EvoIII16G.. so I have one bolted up now. Hopefully.... I'll let ya know how she runs in a week or two after I get it all back together

 

[TimG]

I don't believe the v-trim is a "Bullseye" turbo. The turbo itself is actually a 25+ year old design Garrett CHRA and compressor housing mated with a bullseye housing. For the last 25 years, these turbos have been tried, tested and true. I ran one for 2 years and 10,000miles without any issues. Have you possibly thought it might have been an oiling issue?

 

[Ho0ked]

Well Bullseye turbos suck, Ive only put about 1000 miles on my vtrim and it took a shit on me already. The performance shop called me and told me its got really bad shaft play. it touches the side walls.

so now my question is what turbo to put on there.
my block will consist of (head)-264-272 camshafts, unorthodox camgears, greddy timing belt, (block)-oh yeah the block is a 6 bolt ,arias pistons, eagle hbeam rods, mitsubishi metal hg, balance shaft removal, arp hardware.
act 2100 clutch kit w/ fidanza flywheel
my fuel system is 650cc injectors, 190pump,
I have a safc II with palm pilot with packetlogger software.

Now what turbo would be good for my setup, this is a fwd, I want to run around 20psi and they will tune it around 300hp. probably more.
I would like to go with a evo III big 16g and the guy said that would be downsizing, but I have heard nothing but good things about that turbo.

Can someone give me some advice.
thanks

PS. 20 psi is going to be to low for anything in the 50trim range they start getting powerful after 25psi, 20 psi is more like the 16g and even it can go higher.

Couple things I noticed......

Act 2100 is not going to hold up to that kinda power to well, its barely enough for a 16g and some track time will most likely kill it.

And a 190 pump is barely adequate for a 16g anything more and u realy need a walboro 250. I'm running the same size injectors as you with a 50 trim and safc II and palm, my mods match a 50 trim well but yours are the minimum for a 16g.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

PS. 20 psi is going to be to low for anything in the 50trim range they start getting powerful after 25psi, 20 psi is more like the 16g and even it can go higher.

Couple things I noticed......

Act 2100 is not going to hold up to that kinda power to well, its barely enough for a 16g and some track time will most likely kill it.

And a 190 pump is barely adequate for a 16g anything more and u realy need a walboro 250. I'm running the same size injectors as you with a 50 trim and safc II and palm, my mods match a 50 trim well but yours are the minimum for a 16g.

Ok you need not to post anymore til you read up. 20 psi is perfect for a 50 trim. DD you are only gonna get around 20-22 psi out of it before you start to get knock on pump gas. Around here at least with out crappy gas. 50 trims start to get to the top of thier efficiency around 25psi. And a T28 is SMALLER than an E316G so once again you are wrong. The T28 spools faster than the E316G also. And who cares about light to light. You are an idiot if you buy a turbo based on it's streetracing capabilities, which is illegal and highly frowned upon on this site. And as far as the traction goes. As long as you have any ability to drive you can get a car to hook without tons of wheelspin. I hve no troubles past first gear getting traction and I have instant spool. The ACT 2100 should hold up just fine to a E316G. I have a friend who has been putting about 15 passes a weekend on his 2100 for the last 5 months and his car is AWD and the clutch has held up just fine. It is rated for 400ft lbs. of torque. The 190 is plenty for an E316G. If you do the math it is good for over 400hp and unless he is gonna run race gas in his DD he won't make it to 400hp on pump. And WALBRO not walboro offers a 255 not a 250. You plans on right on man and I wish you the best of luck with the E316G. Seems to be the turbo of choice for most DSMers.

 

[drivemusicnow]

PS. 20 psi is going to be to low for anything in the 50trim range they start getting powerful after 25psi, 20 psi is more like the 16g and even it can go higher.

Couple things I noticed......

Act 2100 is not going to hold up to that kinda power to well, its barely enough for a 16g and some track time will most likely kill it.

And a 190 pump is barely adequate for a 16g anything more and u realy need a walboro 250. I'm running the same size injectors as you with a 50 trim and safc II and palm, my mods match a 50 trim well but yours are the minimum for a 16g.

Hooked: Pressure is completely independant of the turbocharger. 20psi on a 50 trim is flowing more CFM than 20 psi on a 16g. Relating them the way you did shows that you really don't understand how it works. and there are LOTS of people who tune 50 trims at about 20psi of boost with pump gas.

And you can always limit power by turning the boost down. I would suggest to him a 50 trim turbo, and then when he decides to go bigger later (which he will) he can get the larger fuel pump and heavier clutch to go with the increased boost.

 

[90blacktsiawd]

PS. 20 psi is going to be to low for anything in the 50trim range they start getting powerful after 25psi, 20 psi is more like the 16g and even it can go higher.

Couple things I noticed......

Act 2100 is not going to hold up to that kinda power to well, its barely enough for a 16g and some track time will most likely kill it.

And a 190 pump is barely adequate for a 16g anything more and u realy need a walboro 250. I'm running the same size injectors as you with a 50 trim and safc II and palm, my mods match a 50 trim well but yours are the minimum for a 16g.

You need to do more research and less talking . A 50 trim @ 20 psi is quite a happy turbo to play with on pump gas. Go ahead, ask me how know. A 2100 is a very acceptable clutch for the kind of fwhp he's looking to get. He already stated he doesnt intend on going to the track much so your statement on that point is null and void.

I also would recommend a 50 trim from one of our more reputable vendors. It'll be very happy running moderate boost until your ready to turn it up.

 

[daren_p]

Ok you need not to post anymore til you read up. 20 psi is perfect for a 50 trim. DD you are only gonna get around 20-22 psi out of it before you start to get knock on pump gas. Around here at least with out crappy gas. 50 trims start to get to the top of thier efficiency around 25psi. And a T28 is SMALLER than an E316G so once again you are wrong. The T28 spools faster than the E316G also. And who cares about light to light. You are an idiot if you buy a turbo based on it's streetracing capabilities, which is illegal and highly frowned upon on this site. And as far as the traction goes. As long as you have any ability to drive you can get a car to hook without tons of wheelspin. I hve no troubles past first gear getting traction and I have instant spool. The ACT 2100 should hold up just fine to a E316G. I have a friend who has been putting about 15 passes a weekend on his 2100 for the last 5 months and his car is AWD and the clutch has held up just fine. It is rated for 400ft lbs. of torque. The 190 is plenty for an E316G. If you do the math it is good for over 400hp and unless he is gonna run race gas in his DD he won't make it to 400hp on pump. And WALBRO not walboro offers a 255 not a 250. You plans on right on man and I wish you the best of luck with the E316G. Seems to be the turbo of choice for most DSMers.

Nicely put, this is pretty much what I would have said in reply to the above posts The evoIII is a great little turbo & with a properly setup car traction won't be an issue. This being said, I'll have to go with the trend & recommend at "50 trim" as well.

 

[dsm-onster]

Hooked: Pressure is completely independant of the turbocharger. 20psi on a 50 trim is flowing more CFM than 20 psi on a 16g. Relating them the way you did shows that you really don't understand how it works. and there are LOTS of people who tune 50 trims at about 20psi of boost with pump gas.

Sorry, I HAVE to interject here. There LOTS and LOTS of evo3 16g street setups running pump gas and 20+ psi.

Also, compressor efficiency has only a minute affect on power when running a decent intercooler. But is a good indicator at where the turbo will blow up from overrevving.

Surge is more detrimental to performance than the other end of the map WRT compressor choice. Compressor efficiency is a good indicator of turbo rpm which is helpful in determining whethor or not the turbo will blow up at a given boost level and a given volume flow demand from the engine. As no turbo manufacturer would completely off-balance the flow capabilities of a turbine and compressor combination (hybrid or not). The key here is simply volume demand. If a 2.0L engine w. 272s demands 35 lb/min from an e3 16G at 20 psi, then it demands the same from a 50trim at 20 psi. Looking at the comressor map, where does the efficiency lie between the two. Further. . . here's the calculations to get to volume flow for a simple turbo/intercooler setup:

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Doing the math you see that 10% difference (from 75% efficiency to 65% efficiency) at 23 psi and an intercooler at 75% efficiency, yields a final intake tem difference of 10 degrees F. This is a wapping 5 crank hp difference w/ a 2.0L at 7K rpms and 95% VE. Drop the intercooler efficiency 10% and see what happens . . .

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Sucess! . I like the E316G but you can never go wrong with a the good ole PTE SCM5031E. I have had 3 of them on 5 DSM's I have owned.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Sorry, I HAVE to interject here. There LOTS and LOTS of evo3 16g street setups running pump gas and 20+ psi.

Also, compressor efficiency has only a minute affect on power when running a decent intercooler. But is a good indicator at where the turbo will blow up from overrevving.

Surge is more detrimental to performance than the other end of the map WRT compressor choice. Compressor efficiency is a good indicator of turbo rpm which is helpful in determining whethor or not the turbo will blow up at a given boost level and a given volume flow demand from the engine. As no turbo manufacturer would completely off-balance the flow capabilities of a turbine and compressor combination (hybrid or not). The key here is simply volume demand. If a 2.0L engine w. 272s demands 35 lb/min from an e3 16G at 20 psi, then it demands the same from a 50trim at 20 psi. Looking at the comressor map, where does the efficiency lie between the two. Further. . . here's the calculations to get to volume flow for a simple turbo/intercooler setup:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Doing the math you see that 10% difference (from 75% efficiency to 65% efficiency) at 23 psi and an intercooler at 75% efficiency, yields a final intake tem difference of 10 degrees F. This is a wapping 5 crank hp difference w/ a 2.0L at 7K rpms and 95% VE. Drop the intercooler efficiency 10% and see what happens . . .

First, Where did I EVER say that an evo3 couldn't run 20 psi? moving on:
Compressor efficiency has EVERYTHING to do with power. To put it simply, a a t66 and a t25. Both at 20 psi (and we'll pretend the 25 could even hold it to redline) which one is going to make more power?
Ahh but here is where your simple calculations fail you.
Now show me an intercooler that is 75% efficient. It doesn't exist, and the closer you get to higher efficiency the more pressure loss across the core there is, thus raising the pressure the compressor must operate at to get the same pressure in the manifold. Pressure drop is just as important as efficiency when looking at the overall system.

I'm really confused as to what you're argueing against? Are you really trying to say that an evo3 is almost the same as a 50trim at 20 psi? and even then, what does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

I would have to agree with above. The compressor efficency does have a large effect on power output, becase the lower the efficency the higher the compressor output temperature.

Bill

 

[99gst_racer]

PS. 20 psi is going to be to low for anything in the 50trim range they start getting powerful after 25psi, 20 psi is more like the 16g and even it can go higher.

A better way to word that would be to say, "the 50-trim wakes up at around 20 psi and makes great power in the 25-30 psi range. 20 psi is not "too low" for making 300 WHP at all.

Act 2100 is not going to hold up to that kinda power to well, its barely enough for a 16g and some track time will most likely kill it.

Not true. I had my 2100 (with a street disk) in my car for 3 years, and I was putting down 350 ft/lbs of torque. It looked so good after I removed a few months ago, that I sold it to a buddy of mine, and it's still holding great in his 2G AWD.


mattspyder - My V-trim died on me as well. I had less than one summer of driving on it and cause of death was excessive shaft play caused my excessive compressure surge. You live and learn, I guess. I've since ran a couple different turbo's and I liked them all better than the v-trim.

I had an E3 16G @ 23 PSI and it was a great little turbo for a FWD street car. I loved the quick spool, and if you're loking for a leliable turbo to make 300-350 WHP, this is the one. My only complaint was topend power, but I also had many intake restrictions like stock cams intake manifold, and throttle body.

I now have a T3 50-trim and I love this even more. I'm making more power with this as apposed to the 16G. Topend power is much better even with the same intake restrictions, but at the expensive of a little more lag.

 

[ThingyNess]

First, Where did I EVER say that an evo3 couldn't run 20 psi? moving on:
Compressor efficiency has EVERYTHING to do with power. To put it simply, a a t66 and a t25. Both at 20 psi (and we'll pretend the 25 could even hold it to redline) which one is going to make more power?
Ahh but here is where your simple calculations fail you.
Now show me an intercooler that is 75% efficient. It doesn't exist, and the closer you get to higher efficiency the more pressure loss across the core there is, thus raising the pressure the compressor must operate at to get the same pressure in the manifold. Pressure drop is just as important as efficiency when looking at the overall system.

I'm really confused as to what you're argueing against? Are you really trying to say that an evo3 is almost the same as a 50trim at 20 psi? and even then, what does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

What you're saying isn't exactly true. Rather than saying what I've said a million times before, I'll simply give you some links to help you understand.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=151191420&postcount=2
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=151192976&postcount=16

While you're absolutely right in that a garden variety 50 trim will make significantly more power than an EVO3-16g at 20psi, it has nothing to do with the bigger compressor wheel "flowing more air." The 50 trims, by and large, simply have a bigger, less restrictive turbine section, and the increased engine VE from the reduced exhaust backpressure is where you get your extra power from.

Cobble together a hybrid 16g compressor side with the same turbine housing and turbine wheel that you use for your 50 trim, and you will make the *very* close to the same power, so long as you're not running the 16g anywhere near its choke region. At 15psi you wouldn't see any difference, and you'd be still very close in the 18-20psi range as well.

 

[dsm-onster]

Now show me an intercooler that is 75% efficient.

Any good FMIC!!!

I'm really confused as to what you're argueing against? Are you really trying to say that an evo3 is almost the same as a 50trim at 20 psi? and even then, what does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

Well then, prove it wrong. . . BTW, YOU brought it up. Read:

20psi on a 50 trim is flowing more CFM than 20 psi on a 16g.

Not enough cfm to write home about. . .

 

[DoyoFCT]

doesnt your turbo have a warranty, im pretty sure it should have a decent no hassle type warranty. generally turbos that fail like this are because of some other problem(install, oiling, foreign objects etc etc). something that's very common is ppl slap turbos on cars without priming them with oil. which im a firm believer in i dont care what anyone else says.

 

[dsm-onster]

What you're saying isn't exactly true. Rather than saying what I've said a million times before, I'll simply give you some links to help you understand.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=151191420&postcount=2
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=151192976&postcount=16

While you're absolutely right in that a garden variety 50 trim will make significantly more power than an EVO3-16g at 20psi, it has nothing to do with the bigger compressor wheel "flowing more air." The 50 trims, by and large, simply have a bigger, less restrictive turbine section, and the increased engine VE from the reduced exhaust backpressure is where you get your extra power from.

Cobble together a hybrid 16g compressor side with the same turbine housing and turbine wheel that you use for your 50 trim, and you will make the *very* close to the same power, so long as you're not running the 16g anywhere near its choke region. At 15psi you wouldn't see any difference, and you'd be still very close in the 18-20psi range as well.

Thank you. This is telling better than me...

 

[mattspyder]

I thank you all for your advice. Im going with the evo III big 16g, the shop has one that is ported to 7cm. so they are just going to port my exhaust manifold.
For the use of my car, it will not be going to the track, it will just be a summer car to drive in the sun and smoke some rice rockets.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

I have a question and sorry if it sounds like a noob question. I understand the discussion about the larger turbine housings decreasing exhaust back pressure increasing volumetric efficency and thus increasing power. But are you saying that the only reason we run larger compressor housing is to not run into choke at a certain boost pressure? Also I dont understand how you can say that increasing the flow of the compressor side doesnt increase power. Sorry if im just confused, but I had always thought that we get "bigger" turbos with high efficency for our particular boost and CFM to flow more air as cool as possible and that that is what gives you more power, and then we can "pick" turbine A/R ratio based on wether yuo want a quicker spooling turbo with less top end or a slowwer spooling turbo with more top end.

Bill

 

[ThingyNess]

I have a question and sorry if it sounds like a noob question. I understand the discussion about the larger turbine housings decreasing exhaust back pressure increasing volumetric efficency and thus increasing power. But are you saying that the only reason we run larger compressor housing is to not run into choke at a certain boost pressure? Also I dont understand how you can say that increasing the flow of the compressor side doesnt increase power. Sorry if im just confused, but I had always thought that we get "bigger" turbos with high efficency for our particular boost and CFM to flow more air as cool as possible and that that is what gives you more power, and then we can "pick" turbine A/R ratio based on wether yuo want a quicker spooling turbo with less top end or a slowwer spooling turbo with more top end.

Bill

Questions are good, particularly if they have some thought behind them. It's the best way to learn.

You are indeed correct. The only reason we run larger compressor wheels (and with them come the bigger compressor housings) is so that we can run higher boost pressures (and with them, more volumetric flow as well) without hitting the choke region. The choke region of a compressor is where large increases in shaft speed cause small or no increase in the amount of airflow - you can spin the wheel as fast as you want, but at that point it just can't flow any more. Once you've hit that point, if you want to make more power, you *have* to go bigger. You don't have a choice.

Amusingly, a lot of people are ass-backwards when it comes to sizing turbos. I have laughed to myself a few times locally watching honda guys put T3/T04e 57 or 60 trims, or even T67s on a little honda 1.6L D16Z6, only to run like 12psi and make 250whp.

They point to their friend who perhaps put a DSM 14b on their honda and only made 200whp at 12psi and go on about how their huge compressor is so much more efficient so it made more power. Ironically, at those power levels, their T67 is likely pushing *hotter* air out of its compressor side than the 14b would. If you take a look at the compressor maps for each and plot the D16's demand lines, you'll likely find that the 14b is right in the meat of its efficiency islands while the T67 is wheezing over along on the left by the surge limit.

If they *really* wanted to make the most power at the least amount of boost, they'd have taken the compressor side off that T67 and kept the P-trim turbine wheel and big T04 housing, and put a smaller compressor on it, like a T3 super 60 or something along those lines. They'd have much quicker spool AND more power (at the same boost level) that way, not less like you might be inclined to believe.

To size a turbo, you want to pick a compressor side that's big enough to make as much power as you want without running anywhere near the choke limit, and ideally staying as close to the high efficiency parts of the compressor map as you can. No bigger, no smaller. Then you size the turbine side big enough that it doesn't provide a huge restriction at you intended power level either.

Of course, this part is subjective, and depends a lot on the vehicle as well. Differently sized and differently designed engines flow more and less air, for example, and your turbine side will need to be sized accordingly to slow boost onset enough that you stay out of the surge region, particularly if you have an older 60's era Garrett compressor wheel/housing design that is much more prone to surge than the newer ones. Then it's just a matter of trading off exhaust backpressure and the according loss in engine VE and increased likelihood of detonation with spool time. (The increased likelyhood of detonation is due in a large extent to high pressure, searing hot exhaust gases being forced back into the combustion chamber and diluting/heating up your nice cool intake charge during the camshaft overlap period)

There are other factors to take into account as well, but this covers the lion's share of it. I know this was somewhat long winded and perhaps confusing to follow, so if you need more clarification, please ask.

 

[daren_p]

I totally agree with the statements about turbine wheel & housing size, changing VE,etc but I'm curious about this compressor wheel statement & not seeing any gains by switching to a larger/more efficient comp wheel/housing combo. Take for example the FP30 series of turbo's. Both the FP3052 & the 3065 use the exact same turbine wheel & housing so no differences there. Difference's are in the comp wheel & housing. For example, on the same setup running 20-22 psi, which is well within each turbo's effiency range, the 3065 will net you greater power. If your statement is true why does the larger 3065 net more power?

Another example would be the bastard series of turbos where they cram a 20g comp wheel into the smaller 16g housing. This turbo shares the same turbine wheel/housing as a std 20g but I don't see them neting the same power as a straight up 20g?