Pte 5031RLE, 3431RLE, GT3076RLE?

[daren_p]

Okay well its time to upgrade my evoIII & I've done alot or searching & reading & I think I've narrowed it down to these three turbos but Im having trouble making up my mind as it seems most people recommend the turbo their running & can't compare it to the others. I was currently running the evoIII at 20psi & I want something thats a little more pump friendly (ie produces less heat at these boost levels) Now I want to stick to the PTE Mitsu bolt-on housing, I know you can make more power with the T3 housing but I'm still running a stock 7bolt & Im not looking for all out power, just a quick mainly street car that has more top end compared to the evoIII & I don't want to replace my SBR mani just yet. Basically this is mostly a street car so while making extra power on alot of boost & race gas is nice, the way it performs at 20-22 psi on pump is more important to me. I was looking on how they compare with spool up & do one of them offer more power at these kinds of boost level or are the difference not realised until higher boost? I see the GT3076 is listed with the .48 AR housing on the DejonTool website, is this the norm for this turbo as I think it would limit top end/power production or do most places also stock the .63 AR housing? Another question is how does the boost come on with these turbos? My evoIII comes on all at once & hit hard on initial spool up. Im fwd so while traction still isn't to bad for me as I have a Quafie LSD & a good set of tires, I think something with more linear power is just going to help things out.

 

[brute]

Well let's see here. The 50-trim and 3071 are pretty much perfect for my car on 20 psi, as judged by the compressor maps. The 3076 is a little different, but it shouldn't be enough to completely turn you off. The 50-trim has a linear spool. It just comes on slow and steady then rips. The evo III comes on extremely fast and hits you in the ass like a truck. This is how the .48 a/r would be on the 3076. I personally think this turbo was designed to be mated to a .63 a/r T3 exhaust housing, but that's just me.

I'm venturing to say that the 3076 would be nice one the street, but it would like race gas better. The 50-trim has been the top contender for best pump-gas turbo for years. I vote for the 50-trim.

PS: are you looking at ball bearing?

 

[LRS95TSI]

Okay well its time to upgrade my evoIII & I've done alot or searching & reading & I think I've narrowed it down to these three turbos but Im having trouble making up my mind as it seems most people recommend the turbo their running & can't compare it to the others. I was currently running the evoIII at 20psi & I want something thats a little more pump friendly (ie produces less heat at these boost levels) Now I want to stick to the PTE Mitsu bolt-on housing, I know you can make more power with the T3 housing but I'm still running a stock 7bolt & Im not looking for all out power, just a quick mainly street car that has more top end compared to the evoIII & I don't want to replace my SBR mani just yet. Basically this is mostly a street car so while making extra power on alot of boost & race gas is nice, the way it performs at 20-22 psi on pump is more important to me. I was looking on how they compare with spool up & do one of them offer more power at these kinds of boost level or are the difference not realised until higher boost? I see the GT3076 is listed with the .48 AR housing on the DejonTool website, is this the norm for this turbo as I think it would limit top end/power production or do most places also stock the .63 AR housing? Another question is how does the boost come on with these turbos? My evoIII comes on all at once & hit hard on initial spool up. Im fwd so while traction still isn't to bad for me as I have a Quafie LSD & a good set of tires, I think something with more linear power is just going to help things out.

i'm glad you made this thread, i think i've posted in several other threads here of late asking the exact same questions...i personally think that the 3076 with .63 would be the better bet, especially to allow for growth...and being street driven i think the ball bearing version would be a perfect turbo...i plan to have either the 5031bb, 3076bb or fp3052...i'm wondering what kind of power the 3076 would make or airflow it would have on 20-22psi...

not to jack your thread, but in 2nd gear with your quaife lsd, do you spin at all going full throttle....i don't have quaife and at 50-60% throttle in second i roast the tires on 20psi and evo3. just curious, i know the quaife is 1000+, just wondering if it's worth it or close to awd...and doesn't cause tire wear faster? kinda like a welded diff?

 

[daren_p]

Yes defently going to go with a BB version of what ever turbo I choose. I heard from Dejon tool that getting the GT3076 with the Mitsu .63 A/R housing is something they can do as well as I think this would be better suited for a fwd. brute what make the "50 trim" your turbo of choice vs the other two & what do you mean by the 3076 being a different comp map but shouldn't be enough to completely turn me off?

LRS95TSI, the Quaife does wonders for how the car drives in both corners & straight, with a good set of tires with my evoIII @ 22 psi before cams or 18 psi after (both same amount of airflow) I get a slight spin in second but not enough to lose traction & it doesn't continue through the whole gear, just grabs & goes. No it doesn't wear the tires down faster (like a welded diff in turns) as it acts like an open diff until it senses slip, its surprising how much more you can get on the gas through a corner & still head exactly where you want without understeer with the Quaife, even for the money defently worth it in a fwd. But I want to keep this thread on track so if you have any other questions feel free to PM me .

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

the on going debate between the OG T3/T4 vs. GT is still living strong

Here is my opinion based on trying just about all of the turbos you can imagine and selling dozens of each.

If you are looking for a turbo to make 400-450 on pump gas and want a setup to run 20-24psi everyday then the 50trim is the way to go.

If you want a turbo that CAN go over 450 with high boost and the help of some race gas then the larger GT30 series is a good way to go.

I personally love the 50trim because it will do what you need it to do on pump gas and has been doing so for many many years now.

Either turbo will serve you well.

best of luck and please do keep us posted on your decision and progress.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

oh and you might want to really look into the Borg Warner S256. It is an extended tip 50 trim that is showing to spool faster than the regular 50 and is rated at 58lbs/min i believe vs. the 49lbs/min that the traditional 50trim.

 

[daren_p]

oh and you might want to really look into the Borg Warner S256. It is an extended tip 50 trim that is showing to spool faster than the regular 50 and is rated at 58lbs/min i believe vs. the 49lbs/min that the traditional 50trim.

Thanks for the input Martin, I had looked at the Borg Warner turbos but I believe their only available with the bullseye turbine housing. I think I want to stick with the PTE housing as I believe it has a slightly larger A/R? & I want a housing that you can still bolt the factory heat shield to to keep it "stock" looking.

So since you recommended the "50 trim" for 20-22 psi on pump vs the the GT30R, does it have better "manners" at this boost level or are there issues running the 30R with this low of boost, basically why is the 50 better at this boost level. Also what about the power delivery are they basically the same or is one more linear or do they all hit the same?

 

[andymoraitis]

Daren,

This is a great and very informative thread for people looking to pick up a strong mid to high end power pump gas turbo. Kudos for starting a good thread.

In speaking from experience, I have a B cover Bullseye 50 trim and if I had it to do over again, I would look at one of Marti's S256 Switzer turbos. The A/R may be a bit smaller than a traditional T3 frame due to the Bullseye housing, but if you're not revving much higher than 7200 I don't see this as being a big issue. Plus, with a flow rate of 58 lbs/min vs. 49 it's very usable for both street and track.

With respect to traditional 50 trims, they are exceptional turbos on pump and if you can source one with an E or even an S cover, the air charge temps will be even more friendly due to less friction from the compressor wheel spacing to the cover. Although I run very low timing (8 degrees max) on built internals, I've been successfully running a zero knock tune at 25-26 psi without issue. While the turbo performs very well at 20-22, there's an apparent difference when upping the boost to 25-26. Keep in mind that although the 50 trim is very capable it will run out of steam at around 30 psi depending on your setup.

Having run both a 16G and a 50 trim, the power delivery is very different. As mentioned above the 16G variants hit hard and fast while the 50 trim is much more linear with a nice kick as full boost arrives. It feels very controllable although I've never been in an FWD car running a 50 to see what the difference is. I would surmise that due to the softer map that it would be more friendly as you hit max boost. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm off base.

I'd like to see you step into something that can offer you similar airflow numbers as the Switzer so that you have room to grow into it while still being firmly on the compressor map. I haven't looked at the maps from the PTE and FP turbos you listed, but I think you'd be happiest running a turbo where you can have more airflow up top if you need it rather than being in my situation where yanking the boost much higher won't create appreciable airflow or power gains.

Barring that, there's always the venerable 60-1 which is the ultimate pump gas monster and perfect for FWD.

Good luck and I hope I haven't rambled too much.

Andy

 

[LRS95TSI]

I would look at one of Marti's S256 Switzer turbos.

Barring that, there's always the venerable 60-1 which is the ultimate pump gas monster and perfect for FWD.

yea congrats +1 man...
wouldn't the 60-1 come on fairly late compared to these other turbo's daren is considering? the 3076 would be like 3900-4100? or am i way off? i'm not familiar with either one just going off other things.

my personal opinion is to go slightly larger then the 50 trim...going to the 3076 or so in a ball bearing version would give you a decent spool, with good power and an AWESOME sound!

where are these switzer turbo's you guys are speaking of, with airflow #'s higher then normal 50 trims?

 

[2gGSX]

There is a lot of information on the Borg Warner turbo at the Bullseye Power website: http://www.bullseyepower.com/

 

[LRS95TSI]

i just looked on their website...and i will say they are a nice upgrade, but i can't justify that kind of money spending when you could potentially get a bigger or better turbo for the same or a little more money...

 

[daren_p]

Thanks for the input Andy, the S256 does look interesting, but I don't think Im sold on the Bullseye turbine housing (though the polished SS turbine housing & comp cover has got me abit more interested ). I don't want to limit my rpm potential as currently I'll probably keep the stock 7500 redline but if I keep the car for awhile I'll probably go forged internal eventually & bump that up abit. I already have crower springs & titanium retainers. Also what about the reliability of these vs Garrett?

I had thought about a "60 trim" or a 60-1 but I was thinking they may be too much turbo for me. I was under the impression they didn't do that well on the lower boost that I would be running & wouldn't there be a good amount of jump in the spool time with one of these vs my origional 3 picks?

 

[daren_p]

Also if anyone has the proper compressor maps for the three origional turbos & the S256, if you could post them or a link to them would be great. I found some maps but Im not sure if they are 100% correct. I went through the steps on Garrett's website to find your correct pressure ratio, taking into account losses for plumbing restrictions, intakes, filters, etc, etc. & I mapped out with the maps I could find. Judgeing by the maps I could find the "50 trim" looks to have a good map as 20-22 psi would be right in the second highest efficiency island, which I believe was %74. That island seems to be a good size compared to other turbos I found maps for. If I did find the correct map for the "57 trim", when I plotted it out it didn't look all that great. Don't have the map with me but if I recall I was in a lower effiency range & closer to the surge line.

While I couldn't find a map for the evoIII, I did plot out the B16g & with the boost I was running looks like I was running a pretty low efficieny range, like 60%. I had been having knock issues ever since I installed my cams & Im thinking that installing them was enough to push me even further off the map with the addition airflow.

 

[brute]

TO4E 50-trim

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TO4E 57-trim

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[daren_p]

Thanks brute, those were the 50 & 57 trim maps I found but the one I found of the GT3076 wasn't the same as that, that one looks much better, the one I found almost looked like someone hand drew it. Well I think I've ruled the 57 trim out, just doesn't seem to be that great of a map compared to the 50 trim, which seems to have such a broad effiency range, looks like at higher boost the 57 trim would surge quicker as well. The GT3076 seems to have a pretty nice map as well from what I can tell but it too looks like it will surge before the 50 trim will. Whats the main reason most recommend the 5031 over the 3076 as their maps being fairly similar? Also can anyone post a map on the S256, I know the S200 looke to have a fairly nice looking map but I think is abit to small for what Im looking for.

 

[CanadianTSi]

When you step it up to a bigger turbo your going to want to run atleast 22psi to really Feel the difference.

When I went from an Evo 3 at 20psi to a 50 trim it didn't really feel all that much faster(the way the power is deliverd might have something to do with this) but once you start turning the boost up the difference becomes apparent. You should have access to Sunoco 94 so 23-24psi should be no problem

Also for what its worth Buschur is developing a new Turbo Kit for the Evo's Using the S256, so apparently he likes it.

 

[definitiveno]

Do borg warner turbo's come built with t3 flanges? Also do they use the same ford 4 bolt style outlets?

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

we have the S256 in a SS DSM housing and also SS T3 housings that have the ability to run both 5 bolt SVO and 4 Bolt discharge flanges.

 

[definitiveno]

I'm not interested in a bulls eye housing what so ever, unless you have larger A/R's available. My motor is built to spin

 

[Steve93Talon]

The S200 series (256, 258) come available with T3 style housings in various ARs, including a divided inlet housing option. The integra that dynoed 550+ whp with the S256 was using a T3 .76AR housing. Incidentally, we recently made 516whp on an HX40 in the Bullseye bolt-on housing, with no sign of power dropping off up to 8k. I'll be installing an S256 bolt-on in the next couple weeks with timeslips to follow. If I built another FWD, I'd go with something bigger and slower spooling like the 60-1 mentioned eariler myself.

 

[definitiveno]

Where can I shop the borg warners with the t3 housings and optional a/r's online?

 

[Steve93Talon]

http://www.bullseyepower.com/images/ETT50.htm

They have a breakdown of available housings on the left.

 

[DGajre777]

Here is some info too - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243786

 

[daren_p]

Here is some info too - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243786

Yep, already read that thread, been reading everything I could find on these turbos . I had thought about a "60 trim" or the 60-1 but won't these put me in the mid 4000 spool range? Currently I see ~20 psi at 3400 rpms with my evoIII, I was expecting the 5031 or 3076 to add about 400 rpms in spool so around the 3800 range, which I think would be the best option for street use with a broad power/rpm band. Also for the amount of boost I wan't to run ~22 psi, I think one of my origional 3 picks would be a better choice. Do the larger 60 or 60-1 even do well on this low of boost? My main reason why only wanting to run 22 psi is the block is still all stock 7 bolt & I don't want to push it to hard as it is my daily driver & if it gets build it would still be a few years down the road.

I know some run 22-24 on the stock 7 bolt daily, if I did descide to run it that high would most still recommend the 5031RLE or would the GT3076 be a better choice? For those running the 3076 with the E cover do you get surge & what turbine housing are you running? I'm thinking there might be surge issues with the smaller .48 but getting the .63 housing may prevent this? If I did go with the 3076 I'd get the .63 housing, does anyone know how much extra spool time the larger housing will add? I'm thinking right around the 4000 mark?

 

[LRS95TSI]

Yep, already read that thread, been reading everything I could find on these turbos . I had thought about a "60 trim" or the 60-1 but won't these put me in the mid 4000 spool range? Currently I see ~20 psi at 3400 rpms with my evoIII, I was expecting the 5031 or 3076 to add about 400 rpms in spool so around the 3800 range, which I think would be the best option for street use with a broad power/rpm band. Also for the amount of boost I wan't to run ~22 psi, I think one of my origional 3 picks would be a better choice. Do the larger 60 or 60-1 even do well on this low of boost? My main reason why only wanting to run 22 psi is the block is still all stock 7 bolt & I don't want to push it to hard as it is my daily driver & if it gets build it would still be a few years down the road.

I know some run 22-24 on the stock 7 bolt daily, if I did descide to run it that high would most still recommend the 5031RLE or would the GT3076 be a better choice? For those running the 3076 with the E cover do you get surge & what turbine housing are you running? I'm thinking there might be surge issues with the smaller .48 but getting the .63 housing may prevent this? If I did go with the 3076 I'd get the .63 housing, does anyone know how much extra spool time the larger housing will add? I'm thinking right around the 4000 mark?

when i had a bad exhaust prob, my evo3 wasn't spooling until 3900-4000...it is laggier but its not too bad of a wait honestly...i would think the 3076 with the .63 and anti-surge cover would b the best of both worlds, and allow room for growth later on...i could see some1 owning this turbo for a very long period of time.