Turbo that works for a 2.0 and a 2.3

[omegis13]

Hey all,

I have recently accumulated enough cash to upgrade my 14b and give the correct supporting mods for a significantly larger turbo. However, this may be causing more of a dilemma than I thought. The problem is that down the road, I would like to do a 2.3 build up, as I would prefer a very torquey motor to one that has to rev to the moon. I would like to find a turbo that would be very streetable on a 1g 2.0 now, and not be tapped out when I am ready to build a stroker motor. My initial thought was a 50 trim, but I worry that my not cut it on the 2.3, however I worry that something like a 57 trim would be too big on a 2.0 street car that occasionally sees autox. Could someone (((preferably with stroker motor experience))) maybe give me a straight opinon on this?

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[GVR4592]

It seems you are assuming that a larger trim, means a larger turbo. That isn't the case, the TO4E 50 trim flows more than the TO4E 57 trim.

 

[andymoraitis]

I have a 50 trim on the 2.3 and it makes for an excellent street car irrespective of the late spool issues I have (25 psi by 4400 RPM). Nevertheless, it breathes well up top and with a set of cams you'll see fantastic airflow and have an exceptionally enjoyable driver. The off boost torque is definitely worth the investment and the 50 trim is well sized to the motor. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't go much smaller than that if you want a turbo that will hold good boost. If you're interested in autox, I'd recommend a 20G instead of the 50 trim. Although it flows a bit less less, it spools very quickly and with a nice clip it'll flow good air in the upper RPM ranges.

 

[JOEY A]

BB 50trim? Might want to look into that

 

[sunflashx]

I ran a FP3065 on my 2.4L for my last turbo setup. I had 24 psi or so by 4000 rpm. Prior to the 2.4L I had a 2.0L & a full garrett 50 trim ala AGP.

For the enjoyment factor and street driveability the 2.4L & FP3065 > 2.0L & 50 Trim. Maybe a ball bearing 50 trim would have been more impressive, but really, the FP30 package is top notch. There really isn't a good reason to not get a FP30 if you have the money. If you don't, I'd wait until you did.

 

[nanokpsi]

If you are set on the stroker motor in the near future, you'll want something bigger than a 50 trim. Anything with the famed 61mm wheel is a good choice. In reality, turbos don't last forever and if the stroker is a few years off, you may want to stick to something 50 trim-ish. I would do what I could to get away from the bolt ons with the exception of the FP30 stuff though.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Andy your name popped right into my mind when I saw this guys talking about a 2.3 and 50 Trim

My initial thought was a 50 trim, but I worry that my not cut it on the 2.3, however I worry that something like a 57 trim would be too big on a 2.0 street car that occasionally sees autox

Like Luke already stated the Trim is just a way to call the turbo it doesn't define which flows more, for instance the EVO III 16G is a 60 Trim.
Depending on how often you go AutoX the options are really narrowed down to a 20G with the fins clipped 5* or so, or a BB 50 Trim. If you do AutoX more then 3 times per month I would say go 20G clipped, it will keep boost steady at high rpm's and will kick hard quicker then the 50 Trim. If you only plan on AutoX once a month or so I would say BB 50 Trim, you will have great spool time, or both the 2.0, and 2.3 when the engine is built up. The 20g clipped will also be good on the 2.0 in the mean time as well.

If you are set on the stroker motor in the near future, you'll want something bigger than a 50 trim.

When you say larger then a 50 Trim, I am assuming you mean more flow then a 50 Trim. If that is what you mean, might I ask you to explain why he would want a turbo that would in effect slow spool, which would be bad for AutoX which he wants to do.
So my suggestion would be a BB 50 Trim if you wont be doing too much AutoX often, or a 20G clipped if you will be AutoX a decent amount each month.

Dustin

 

[nanokpsi]

Andy your name popped right into my mind when I saw this guys talking about a 2.3 and 50 Trim
Like Luke already stated the Trim is just a way to call the turbo it doesn't define which flows more, for instance the EVO III 16G is a 60 Trim.
Depending on how often you go AutoX the options are really narrowed down to a 20G with the fins clipped 5* or so, or a BB 50 Trim. If you do AutoX more then 3 times per month I would say go 20G clipped, it will keep boost steady at high rpm's and will kick hard quicker then the 50 Trim. If you only plan on AutoX once a month or so I would say BB 50 Trim, you will have great spool time, or both the 2.0, and 2.3 when the engine is built up. The 20g clipped will also be good on the 2.0 in the mean time as well.

When you say larger then a 50 Trim, I am assuming you mean more flow then a 50 Trim. If that is what you mean, might I ask you to explain why he would want a turbo that would in effect slow spool, which would be bad for AutoX which he wants to do.
So my suggestion would be a BB 50 Trim if you wont be doing too much AutoX often, or a 20G clipped if you will be AutoX a decent amount each month.

Dustin

I think it would be tough to have an autox turbo this isn't going to run out of breathe on a stroker. I also didn't pay much attention to the auto-x arguement.
A bb 50 trim is going to be the bigest you can go and still enjoy autox, but you would be suited to somehting even smaller. A stroker and a 50 trim would be perfect for it, since you probably won't put a smim on a autox car anyways. From a power/drag race standpoint, the 50 trim just doens't flow enough on a 2.3-2.4l motor.

 

[fwdeclipse]

It seems you are assuming that a larger trim, means a larger turbo. That isn't the case, the TO4E 50 trim flows more than the TO4E 57 trim.

I am confused by this.could someone explain this?I have a t3 TO4E 60 trim will it flow as much as a 50 trim.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Trim is an area ratio used to describe both turbine and compressor wheels. Trim is calculated using the inducer and exducer diameters.
Example is MHI EVO III 16G:
Inducer diameter = 1.83" (46.482mm)
Exducer diameter = 2.36" (59.944mm)
Trim = Inducer2/Exducer2
Trim = 216/359 = 60 Trim This flows 505cfm (flow rate off SBR & RRE)

Example is MHI "Big" 16G:
Inducer diameter=1.89" (48.006mm)
Exducer diameter=2.68" (68.072mm)
Trim= Inducer2/Exducer2
Trim=230/436= 50 Trim This flows 550cfm (flow rate off SBR & RRE)
So as you can see from those examples the larger the Trim is doesnt mean it flows more, what means more flow is the larger inducer wheel, and exducer wheel. All inch sizes taken off RRE, I did the conversions using 1"=25.4millimeters.
Hope that helps clear it up a bit fwdeclipse

Dustin

 

[tstkl]

what the hell are you smoking, there is only one evo III 16g. Your right about the trim stuff, but I dunno what turbos you are talking about.

 

[Verticaljump1]

The 505cfm turbo he's talking about is the Small 16g. Anyways, GT3076R/.82 A/R should work, decent spool on your 2.0 and good power on the 2.3L too, just my opinion.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

This is the stock turbo from the Lancer EVO III. Outwardly they look like any other 16G. They use the same compressor housing, TDO-5 exhaust wheel, and the same 7cm volume exhaust housing. Until you pop off the compressor housing... HELLO! Big Wheel. Flows 550 cfm vs. 505 cfm for the regular 16G.

The normal 16-G compressor wheel is 1.83" at the inducer and 2.36" at the exducer. The Big 16-G is 1.89" at the inducer and 2.68" at the exducer. That is just over 5/16" (8mm) larger than the normal 16-G exducer and the same size as the GReddy 18-G (inducer diameter is only .10" smaller than a 18-G). Direct bolt on for 1G cars, you need a standard 16-G Install Kit for 2G cars.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclturbos.htm, thats where the text came from is you guys think its the small 16G Im refeering to Im willing to learn how you figured it out, and here is a link to SBRs MHI BIG 16G>>>http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=54&, and here is a link to their MHI EVO III 16G>>>http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=52&, they how the same flow #s that I used.

Dustin

 

[calcifer]

On the rre link here is a quote from the evo III section:
"The normal 16-G compressor wheel is 1.83" at the inducer and 2.36" at the exducer. The Big 16-G is 1.89" at the inducer and 2.68" at the exducer"
The normal 16g is in fact the small 16g, small being something of a misnomer, as it's only "small" because there is a "big" 16g. Also, in your sbr links, the big 16g link mentions that it flows 45cfm over the standard 16g. You already calculated the flows, so 550 - 45 = 505 which is the number you have for the evo III. The rre site is actually very confusing as to which turbo it's talking about in the evo III section.

 

[daren_p]

Trim is an area ratio used to describe both turbine and compressor wheels. Trim is calculated using the inducer and exducer diameters.
Example is MHI EVO III 16G:
Inducer diameter = 1.83" (46.482mm)
Exducer diameter = 2.36" (59.944mm)
Trim = Inducer2/Exducer2
Trim = 216/359 = 60 Trim This flows 505cfm (flow rate off SBR & RRE)

Example is MHI "Big" 16G:
Inducer diameter=1.89" (48.006mm)
Exducer diameter=2.68" (68.072mm)
Trim= Inducer2/Exducer2
Trim=230/436= 50 Trim This flows 550cfm (flow rate off SBR & RRE)
So as you can see from those examples the larger the Trim is doesnt mean it flows more, what means more flow is the larger inducer wheel, and exducer wheel. All inch sizes taken off RRE, I did the conversions using 1"=25.4millimeters.
Hope that helps clear it up a bit fwdeclipse

Dustin

Didn't verify your calculations but the numbers you listed for the evoIII are for a small 16g & so is the flow.

EvoIII is
Ind = 1.903
Exd = 2.675

So its ~50 trim

 

[omegis13]

Thank you for all the help. Unfortunately, I am still turbo dumb, so I really do need to do more reading on how to do actual comparison of turbos. If it hasn't become obvious, I assumed that the larger the trim, the higher the flow (((I should have known this wasn't the case because I have been told before that trim is merely a ratio))). As for the turbo options, I was really wanting to stick to a garrett hybrid, as there seem to be more options for them than over mhi turbos. This brought me to another idea; would it be possible to get a smaller trim garrett hybrid and when I build 2.3, upgrade the chra with a higher flowing compressor wheel?

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[Kevin Jewer]

My personal philosophy is that anything smaller than a 35R sized turbo is too small for a stroker. But the Autox thing makes it more difficult. I think a 50 trim is too small even taking that into account. I was thinking something along thelines of a GT30R, like the 3076 Vertical mentioned. That's a 55 lb turbo, and you'll be able to hit that between 20 and 25 psi on a stroker with typical mods. 50 trim and 20g should struggle to even hold 20 psi with cams and intake manifold for comparison.

If you need to go bolt on, one example comes to mind. I ran a TDO6H 56 trim at one point. I got 25 psi at 4400 on a 2 liter, and 3700 on a stroker. There are better options out there than this turbo these days, but it should give you an idea of the effects on spool for a 65 lb/min sized turbo. If you can go full garret you can choose a turbo that makes sense and upgrade to a larger turbine housing when you go stroker. This is along the same lines as your idea above, but the CHRA is the most expensive part of the turbo.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Didn't verify your calculations but the numbers you listed for the evoIII are for a small 16g & so is the flow.

EvoIII is
Ind = 1.903
Exd = 2.675

So its ~50 trim

Oh OK, thanks Daren for that clearification, RREs site wasn't 100% clear with which they were reffering to. I just verified my calculations, and did out yours, and they are all correct...you wouldnt happen to know the flow of an EVO II 16G, it out flows the "Big" 16G. Any way not to get off topic I would say still say a 50 Trim, or clipped 29g, to kick in hard and quick, that is if you will be doing s decent amount of AutoX. If not too much, a GT35R will be a great street turbo on a 2.3L stroker, thats what I will be going wih after I get out of college next winter.

Dustin

 

[omegis13]

Still no reply on the center section upgrade idea? SBR sells dual BB center sections in various trims of compressor wheels. If I were to start with a 360* journal 50 trim w/ dsm turbine housing and t04e compressor housing, would upgrading the center section with a more potent compressor wheel be a possible idea?

Thanks

Greg Heineken

 

[Kevin Jewer]

If you change the wheels, you have to change the housings.

 

[AL92]

I ran an AGP RS49 50 trim on my 92 2.0 litre and liked it quite a bit. Now running the FP3065 on my 2.4 and like it quite a bit. Guys are running the big turbos on their 2.0s also and many seem to not mind at all. Somedays I do think a 50trim size would be even better with quicker spool around town but realistically a downshift gets me all the power I need and if its a bit doggy off the lights just rev it up higher or use the stutterbox.
I also like the additional 150 hp capability of the bigger turbo for future fun.