Tuning with E85

[95blackGsTurbo]

First off this is more of an informative thread that will show results and the capabilities of E85. I see a lot of guys with questions and concerns about the amount of timing they can run, the AFR's that they run and the difference between E85 and your traditional race gases. I wanted to start this because I see so many people tuning E85 as if it were race gas. Big boost, rich AFR, and no timing on the topend. The fact is these are 2 completely different kinds of fuel.

E85 has really caught on down here in Arizona due to a good friend of mine and local tuner, Phuong (Wingz Performance - Custom Tuning). I will be sharing some big turbo DSM E85 numbers soon. Most all of the data now is from EVO's, but when it comes to the tuning aspect they are pretty much the same.

First, as most people know, E85 has a much different stoichometric AFR. Gasoline has an AFR of 14.7:1. E85 is 9.76:1. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging. Problem being, most all of the widebands out there read on a gas scale. Not a big deal if you take the time to convert the "sweet spot" of E85 to a gasoline number. Timing also is a big thing. The ethanol is slower to ignite, and more timing can be added at max power without the worries of detonation.

The biggest thing I see is most E85 guys are running in the mid 11's for AFR and staying below the 20* timing mark. Although this is a safe place to be, you aren't taking advantage of E85. The guys that really see the difference are the one's who understand it and what it is capable of. I can say from first hand experience that the difference between the 2 on an EVO is pretty dramatic. The car was running an FP Black at 27psi on the stock block, in the area of 12.5-12.8:1 AFR, (honestly as long as it didn't hit 13.0 he was fine with it) and over 20* of timing and it was amazing how much the car was different from the base E85 tune. And this was just a few quick pulls and quick tuning. Nothing extensive.

So anyone else with feedback/dyno results or good E85 maps feel free to come in and I will help to answer any other questions as well.

 

[gofer]

Adam-

Great thread and I can't wait to see what kind of results get posted up here, I'm just not so sure how many members are running E85.

I too have read countless E85 threads on AFR's and timing advance and can't get the same results out of my E85 tune that others have. Since my conversion to E85 I'm running 25psi, my AFRs settle at 12.0 ~ 12.3:1, and my timing advance is no more that 15* or else I start picking up knock. The knock is minimal in my logs, around 0.4 to 0.7* of timing retard but its there.

I'm putting my car up on the dyno on the 9th of April to be tuned by RRE and see if they can squeeze some more power out of it to put to the pavement.

 

[jm1080]

On e85 I stay in the low 12 to high 12 afr and it won't knock, it won't even knock at low 13s. If I stay in the 11s it will knock a tad bit, I also can run as much timing as I want with that lean of a mixture. I will never switch back to 93

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

On e85 I stay in the low 12 to high 12 afr and it won't knock, it won't even knock at low 13s. If I stay in the 11s it will knock a tad bit, I also can run as much timing as I want with that lean of a mixture. I will never switch back to 93

Do you have a log or timing and fuel tables to post up?

Corey, where is your wideband placed in the exhaust system and what brand? Sounds like it may be in a spot that is causing it to read different than the true reading. As stated, leaning it out should help with the knock. 0.4-0.7 is nothing for knock. I would keep adding and see if it gets worse or if it just another symptom.

 

[jm1080]

I do not, I always stream, but when I get my laptop, I will be tuning and I'll post up a log.

Also running colder plug eliminates knock as well. I was running ngk6s and would get knock on e85 in the same boost and timing, now with ngk 8s no more knock, it disappeared instantly without changing tune.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Yes that is another peice of information I forgot to state. You will need to run as hot of a plug as your can for E85.

 

[gofer]

Do you have a log or timing and fuel tables to post up?

Corey, where is your wideband placed in the exhaust system and what brand? Sounds like it may be in a spot that is causing it to read different than the true reading. As stated, leaning it out should help with the knock. 0.4-0.7 is nothing for knock. I would keep adding and see if it gets worse or if it just another symptom.

I'm running my AEM UEGO WB o2 sensor in my rear o2 sensor location (no cat ofcourse) but it is a little further down the line than suggested. Its not that the knock gets worse but it happens at the same place in the RPM band and thats what scares me to keep advancing timing. It does it a 4.5k so in my sliders I have a pretty good dip in timing at 4.5k, but I bring timing back up to redline.

Before I installed my FP2 cams my timing at idle would be around 5 ~ 8* that was being logged in dsmlink. Now, with the FP2 grinds in there I'm getting 10 ~ 13* of timing at idle and I KNOW my cars timed correctly. It seems to me like those cams "advanced" my timing just by installing them, does that mean that I'm running more timing advanced than whats actually being logged?

I still haven't seen knock over 0.7* or my WB gauge display a leaner AFR than 12.2:1, it actually starts going rich from 5k to redline.

Also running colder plug eliminates knock as well. I was running ngk6s and would get knock on e85 in the same boost and timing, now with ngk 8s no more knock, it disappeared instantly without changing tune.

Yes that is another peice of information I forgot to state. You will need to run much colder plugs for E85.

Haven't thought about switching to a colder spark plug, I'm running NGK 7's so I'll grab a set of NGK 8's and install them too before I go up on the dyno.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

You really need to move your wideband to get a better reading. That is going to be one problem. Then I would get a set of 8's and gap them down to .026"-.024".

 

[donniekak]

Compare a logger to a timing light to check the base timing. I run 7's without issue. Rememb, you are actually running 7ish to one afr's. That rich can be hard to light off. The misfires can register as knock.

 

[1995gsx20g]

I'm running my AEM UEGO WB o2 sensor in my rear o2 sensor location (no cat ofcourse) but it is a little further down the line than suggested. Its not that the knock gets worse but it happens at the same place in the RPM band and thats what scares me to keep advancing timing. It does it a 4.5k so in my sliders I have a pretty good dip in timing at 4.5k, but I bring timing back up to redline.

Before I installed my FP2 cams my timing at idle would be around 5 ~ 8* that was being logged in dsmlink. Now, with the FP2 grinds in there I'm getting 10 ~ 13* of timing at idle and I KNOW my cars timed correctly. It seems to me like those cams "advanced" my timing just by installing them, does that mean that I'm running more timing advanced than whats actually being logged?

I still haven't seen knock over 0.7* or my WB gauge display a leaner AFR than 12.2:1, it actually starts going rich from 5k to redline.



Haven't thought about switching to a colder spark plug, I'm running NGK 7's so I'll grab a set of NGK 8's and install them too before I go up on the dyno.

my car had some idling issues before my cam install and after the cam install they got alot worse. i was reading a few tuning books and it was saying that with cams at idle sometimes it wont help to stabilize the idle by just adding fuel. you have to advance the timing sometimes to 20* depending on how big of a set-up you have. just my .02 but im pretty sure your ecu is advancing the timing at idle.
if cams aren't "properly" degreed then yes you could be running more timing but i know myself i wouldn't degree my cams on a street build unless im going for over 600whp.

thanks 95blackgs i didn't know i had to go alot colder.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Depends on setup. You don't have to go A LOT but a step is always recommended if you are having problems.

 

[dsmmatt28]

Im running 12.5-12.8 20* peak timing no knock.33psi hx40

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Edited a post. You need to try to run as hot of a plug as possible with a smaller gap. 7's with a gap in the .020-.024 range is the best area. As donniekak stated, it can pick up a misfire as knock.

 

[gofer]

You really need to move your wideband to get a better reading. That is going to be one problem. Then I would get a set of 8's and gap them down to .026"-.024".

To get a better reading I need to move the WB gauge or the sensor...

I know the suggested location of a WB sensor is 36" downstream from the turbo, mines at like 50" +/- a few. I assumed that the reading I got from its location would be good enough considering dyno shops put their WB sensor in the muffler.

Edited a post. You need to try to run as hot of a plug as possible with a smaller gap. 7's with a gap in the .020-.024 range is the best area. As donniekak stated, it can pick up a misfire as knock.

So I should get a set of 8's and gap them to .020 - .024 or keep the 7's I already have and gap them tighter?



EDIT I attached a 3rd gear pull I did last night, my logged LinWideband is what my gauge was displaying during WOT. The BoostEst is not though, the gauge sits and holds at 24-25psi to redline. I found a boost leak on the INSIDE of my FMIC where the bar and plate meets the end tank. Still trying to figure out how I'm going to resolve that issue, like I said its INSIDE one of the row of fins.
You can also see at the beginning of the log my cars timing at idle is 11 ~ 13*, the WOT pull is at the very END.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Yes keep the 7's and gap them tighter.

 

[fastasseclips95]

I am getting ready to make the switch myself on my new setup. Im running the maft with 1050's and v3 lite. My injector size should be around 750 correct?

 

[UofACATS]

I am getting ready to make the switch myself on my new setup. Im running the maft with 1050's and v3 lite. My injector size should be around 750 correct?

There is a injector calculator in v3 lite.

Here's a link to the WIKI
ecmlink101initialchecks [ECMTuning - wiki]

Here's a video courtesy of ECMLink. (It's easier this way)
http://www.ecmtuning.com/demos/initialsetup.html


Be sure to enter the correct stoichiometric ratio for the fuel you'll be using. If it's E85, then the 14.7 :1 defaulted in the stoichiometric ratio box needs to be changed to 9.7 :1

Once that spits out a number, use it as a starting point to fine tune your fuel trims.

 

[jm1080]

Yes keep the 7's and gap them tighter.

Just wondering, but why do you say to gap them tighter? Only if you are missing you say?

I run 8s at stock .028 gap and no problems, I noticed I started getting little misfires during cruise, but I think it is a boost leak, just wondering if that is what you meant by gapping tighter.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Just wondering, but why do you say to gap them tighter? Only if you are missing you say?

I run 8s at stock .028 gap and no problems, I noticed I started getting little misfires during cruise, but I think it is a boost leak, just wondering if that is what you meant by gapping tighter.

Yes I meant gap them down. Since E85 burns so cold and doesn't ignite as quick as a pump gas or race gas you need a warmer plug and smaller gap to ensure proper ignition. A "misfire" like symptom, that may register as a small amount of knock is a typical symptom of overgapped or too cold of a plug.

 

[jm1080]

Your saying a misfire that registers as a small amount of knock? I do not see any knock at all, but I get little hiccups during cruise, I remember when I fixed tiny leaks it went away, but they came back, did another boost leak test and holds 30psi fine, just little tiny leaks again. Could that cause the hiccups during cruise?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Leaks will always cause problems. That is why I could recommend going speed density. It depends how bad your "hiccups" are. Could be a spark issue or just a tiny boost leak. Usually a minor leak won't cause a huge problem especially if you have a wideband to monitor the A/F ratio.

 

[jm1080]

A little off topic, but how would speed density help with leaks? I'm still a little confused with speed density as I thought you use a MAP with it, but you can use a MAP just to calibrate MAF.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

With speed density you don't use a mass air flow sensor. So fuel isn't going off of a metered amount of air. It's going off what ACTUALLY makes it into the engine. You cold run a turbo car with no I/C piping theoretically if you blew and turbo and needed to limp home.

 

[forcefed86]

I just made the switch from e30 to e85 last night. The AFR's are acting odd.

I run 780cc injectors. DSM stage 3 chip for 91 octane. (11.2 AFR target, 17* timing in the upper maps) Chip is setup for 36psi base FP. Also runnign 100% meth injection 7gph @ 250psi. Current setup is in my sig.

I then use an SAFCII to add additional fuel for the e30... and now e85.

Soo...

I cranked base fuel pressure up to 45. Added a total of 40% more fuel to my WOT maps and off I went. Running an innovative WB02 setup for gas. Sensor located directly under me in the 2.5" DP. (no cats etc)

AFR's jumped to 9:1 or so and the car coughed all over itself. So I continued to pull fuel until I hit around 10.5:1. Oddly enough I had added 24% across the maps for e30. Now I'm at 15% with e85? I noticed the High Trim jumped up to 112 or so now. It was around 100 with the e30. Still it seems like I'd have to add more fuel than I did.

The car pulls very cleanly at 10.5:1 AFR. No knock.

So here is the problem...

When I try to lean out the mixture the car loses power and will sometimes slightly knock.(2-17 on the data logger (MMCD)

I like to make my test pulls on a local bridge with high walls so I can hear eng/exh noise better. I could hear slight popping in the exhaust at 11.5 AFR's.

Something is odd. I know the o2 sensor is calibrated right. I even did a free air calibration yesterday to make sure. DC on the 780's is in the upper 80's.

I doubt blowing out spark. A leaner mixture wouild not make it worse than a richer one and it runs well when rich. I suppose I could try a hotter plug.

The car seems happy at 10.5:1 but I keep thinking I'm leaving alot of power on the table at those levels. I ran 11.5:1 with the e30 and had no issues.

Any suggestions?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

What plugs are you running?