COP vs CeddyMods ECU Flash

[xhackerekx]

Coil Energization Time vs Voltage (CeddyMods)
Everybody know this "COP setup need longer charging time like OEM coils".
I try this on my COP setup with risk fry my power transistor.
no need CDI box now and set plug gap for 32 (BPR7ES) car no have misfire on idle and full boost , just work perfect. very simple :
9.38V 12.032ms
10.55V 9.984ms
11.72V 8.000ms
12.89V 7.936ms
14.06V 7.872ms
15.23V 7.808ms
16.41V 7.744ms
17.58V 6.976ms
18.68V 6.528ms
power transistor fine no overheat i dirive over 450 miles without any problem and idle is more stable like on OEM coils .

 

[danl]

Where is the xml for the ceddymods stuff so that I can add that to my evo ecu. Also your transistor pack isn't what overheats, its the coils.

Also if you wouldn't mind posting up the stock values so that I can see how much of a change you made.

 

[Ceddy]

xml -> http://ceddy.us/wp-content/uploads/CeddyModV8b1.zip

Stock Map:

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Like danl said above you can damage your coils if this is setup wrong.
I usually recommend not to touch this table unless its a last resort and everything else has been tried: different plugs, tighter gap, etc.

 

[jeffo]

That being said, haven't AEM users been changing their dwell time when running COP? I think the Intrepid coils that most guys are using do need a different dwell time, but I've never gotten a definitive word on that.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

I would like more info on this too before I try it. I trust you ceddy but I did notice I had to re-gap my plugs to 26 and it helped. Would this make the spark stronger?

Can we test this out more once I get logging to work. I'm gonna try to log to SD now that I have a card. I know my COP I got from someone on here is an older SBR w/3.5l 300m coils. I be willing to test, my voltmeter does temperature also and I a 1g Trans pack and a 2g one.

 

[xhackerekx]

cop need conect with serial for same resistance setup like oem coils and need longer time for charging u never damage coils with mods like this just u need watch for power transistor temperature, when instal CDI box Volts going to coils is more stronger like on this setup and u have more chance for damage coils.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

how did you come up with the numbers to change. And will it be different for 3.5l coils?

 

[xhackerekx]

coils from chrysler 2000-2003 300m and i change this number by increse and try drive car with standard plug gap .28 and data loger for log knock and misfire with spare power transistor just for case. i drive with this setup from saturday with plug gap .32 car runing like creazy on 25psi boost and feel big difference between oem coils and this setup.

sorry for my english, I try my best.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Im gonna try it tonight i just dont feel like changing out my plugs but thanks for the info and research

 

[cbrfrenzie]

Has anyone looked at the factory dwell times for an Intrepid, or the vehicle in which the coils in use are from?? This would be the correct way to find out the values the factory engineers used.

If I run into some spare time at work sometime soon, I'll bring my Intrepid COP's in and measure current with an oscilloscope. After I take dwell measurements with several different supply voltages (9 volts to 18 volts) I'll post my findings up here for you all to see/use.

One could figure it out mathematically if you know the parameters of the coils in use (resistance, capacitance and inductance). First find the saturation current of the coils: Isaturation = Vbatt / Rcoil (battery voltage and Resistance of the coil). After knowing this, its a rule of thumb that it takes 5 LR time constants (L = Inductance, R = Resistance) to reach that saturation current at a given battery voltage. Measuring the primary Inductance can be tricky, so knowing the spark energy produced from the coil and using the equation: E = (1/2) * L * I^2 (where I = saturation current), you can solve for L. Alternately, you can use the equation: E = (1/2) * Voltage * ChargeTime * FinalCurrent, and solve for ChargeTime that way.

Knowing the time constant (Inductance in Henrys * Resistance in Ohms = Time in seconds) now tells us how much time the coil needs to reach 100% current saturation for a given battery voltage.

Now that we know how long it takes to fully saturate the coil, we just have to "make sure" we are giving the coil enough rest time up at rev limit. This spec is different for different coils, so be sure to stay within the "maximum duty cycle" spec of the coil in use, otherwise you get heating and failures of ignition components.

8500RPM = 70.8333 ignition events per cylinder per second (141.66 events for wasted spark).
This = 14.11 mSeconds per spark event (or 7.05 mSeconds for wasted spark)

Now, as an example using the values in post #1 at 9volts = 12.032 mSeconds yields: (12.032 / 14.11) * 100 = 85.27% Duty Cycle. This is quite a large number, and most coils spec duty cycles <= 60% ~ish, however this is at 9V battery voltage, which never happens at redline on most cars, unless some other part is on its way out.

Lets do the 14v calculation now: (7.872 mSec / 14.11 mSec) * 100 = 55% duty cycle, perfect!

Now if the coils are hooked up in series and ran as a wasted spark setup, you can see that your duty cycle is now GREATER then 100% at a redline of 8500RPM, meaning the coils have zero "cool down" time.

So theres some coil education for anyone wanting to know. Rule of thumb, try to fully saturate the coils, while still maintaining the proper cool down time at rev limit.

 

[polarmoment]

Isaturation = Vbatt / Rcoil (battery voltage and Resistance of the coil). After knowing this, its a rule of thumb that it takes 5 LR time constants (L = Inductance, R = Resistance) to reach that saturation current at a given battery voltage.

Be careful.

A coil with a primary resistance of 0.6ohms will pull ~20A at 5L/R time constants. That's WAY more current than you need to produce a powerful enough spark. A GM DIS coil will pull 34A after 5L/R, even though it only needs about 8A of charge current to light off even the nastiest of mixtures.

Remember too that charge rate is not linear. The coil reaches 75% of max current after only about 1.1L/R. Keeping the coil on longer than that generates heat much, much faster than it generates more spark energy.

 

[xhackerekx]

update:
1023 miles no have any problem with ignition car run perfect

 

[Ceddy]

After looking at the Coil Dwell code a bit more I found there is Maximum Dwell Time Protection, I think this is mainly so the Dwell time doesn't exceed the time between crank revolutions at high RPM. Factoring in some coil cool down time is still up to the user.

There is also a Dwell Low RPM Compensation Table, but it is disabled on the DSMs. The EVOs which have a factory COP setup use this table, so it may be useful to COP users if they have any Low RPM problems.

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* Coil Dwell Max is multiplied by RPM and a bunch more funky math takes place.
So the final value is very large, not the 6.144 mS from the table.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

This might help fix problems with COP misfires

COP BOOT FIX

 

[nightracer91]

So how can I relate this to my EMS? I have 2 tables to set dwell with, one is (Dwell % vs. Batt. Volt). The other is (Dwell vs. RPM) where the y axis of dwell is 0-240, I'm assuming it's microseconds but I could be wrong.

Also, there is Dwell optios of "Coil Dwell Factor" which is set at 30 for a factory ignition, then there is "Dwell Max" at 1 tooth then "Dwell Min" set at .1 teeth. What bearing do these have?

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

I have my spark plug gapped at 32 and its night and day for me on 18psi or more on my pte6152. The car is held back without these settings, the engine sounds better and throttle response is way better. I changed back to factory settings and was like , then flashed back and was happy again!

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

I was getting ignition break up on that gap and with the settings. Should I close my gap or make it larger or get colder plugs? I just started using the meth/water injection also and it didn't help me on above 19psi with the 6152 i just got.

 

[xhackerekx]

i make over 4k miles without backfire or misfire with this setup. plug NGK BP7ES (no resistor plug)

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

what are your gaps still 32?

 

[xhackerekx]

no gap 30 on 25psi i have sometime misfire with hot weather on gap 32 .

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Going to re gap to .28 and see whats good. I got meth injection now and I am still having ignition break up. I thought maybe it was due to high intake temps but I can subtract that now.

 

[xhackerekx]

after re gap reset ecu start engine and leave u car on idle like 10-15 minutes and turn off engine wait like 5 minutes start again and test drive

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

What does letting it idle and then turning it off then back on do?

 

[xhackerekx]

when u turn of car after idle ecu remember new parameters.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Gotcha gonna try it out today when my stuff done drying